halstock Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 I've just rolled the car out for the first proper run of the spring and find upon starting that my oil pressure gauge isn't registering anything. Checking the oil with the dipstick makes it look like there is none (or very little) in there. My car is a 2006 dry sumped 1.6k. I've driven less than 100 miles since having the car serviced by Millwood including oil change and new oil pressure sender, which is still the standard unit in the standard position. The car did start and run fine (apparently) although there was a slight hissing noise coming from the engine (couldn't tell where exactly) for about a minute after turning off. I tried starting twice but no difference either time and didn't want to risk driving it. Any ideas ? I'm afraid I'm not very technical or knowledgeable mechanically so answers as if i know nothing, please ! Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Do you know how to check the oil level with your dry sump system ? If so ... do it If not ... find out. Don't drive it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted March 8, 2014 Area Representative Share Posted March 8, 2014 Is it a caterham dry sump with a belltank? If you remove the cap off the DS tank, and run the engine, can you see oil returning to the tank? It's not unusual for the level in the DS tank to look low when the engine is not running, as the oil level can equalise between the engine and tank. The level should be checked with the oil at normal operating temperature, and the moment the engine has been stopped. The caterham system is often set up with the engine sealed, and for the scavenge pump to pull a vacuum. The hissing could well be air being drawn back into the engine after it has stopped. Why was your sender replaced? Do you have a history of unreliable oil pressure readings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halstock Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 Thanks for your thoughts. The only way I know to check the oil is with the conning tower dipstick, and I was told to run the engine for a minute minimum then check it straight away. When doing this previously it has shown a level between the marks on the dipstick but today it looked like there was only oil on the very tip. It is a Caterham DS with gold pump and as far as I'm aware is the bell tank type. I had the sender replaced while the car was with Millwood as it had been reading erratically and lower than 'normal' and it seems the crappy standard sender is usually the culprit. Ever since then it has been displaying much better pressure particularly when hot. I always keep an eye on the gauge when driving so I'm positive that it was fine the couple of times I've driven it since the service. I'll have to look up how to access the bell tank to try what you suggest and see if I can see the oil flowing. Thanks again, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halstock Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 Ok, good news and what looks (to me) like bad. Please see some pics of what I found. What feels like the only automotive issue I've ever diagnosed outside of a puncture, it appears that I am missing a drive belt that should be wrapped around the gold scavenge pump pulley !! While I have the nose cone off I spotted what I take is the catch tank - white tank to the front left as I stand at the front of the car. Looking in here out of curiosity I see what looks suspiciously like mayonnaise as it is generally described in the case of HGF. What really puzzles me is that I noticed not a single symptom or problem last time I drove it (10 miles about a month ago during a gap in the rain) and I'm wondering when and where the belt can have 'gone'. It can't have been far away from home, can it ? Would the whole thing have packed up straight away ? So on one hand I have found the source of one problem, but have I uncovered something much worse ? Thoughts again would be much appreciated. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubbster Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 This isn't something I'd like to see ☹️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Picture 1 looks ominously like a belt has gone missing ☹️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halstock Posted March 8, 2014 Author Share Posted March 8, 2014 Sorry, I thought I'd made it clear that I realise I have a belt missing What I don't know is how, where or when in relation to my last driving miles. What I also don't know is how best to check what damage may have been done. The only symptom I have seen for myself is the mayo in the catch tank, assuming that's what it is. Is there any chance that it might be OK when I get a new belt on or is the mayo a sign of definite damage ? Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted March 9, 2014 Area Representative Share Posted March 9, 2014 If the DS belt is missing, all of the oil will be inside the engine. I'd replace the belt, add a little more oil to the tank, and crank it to see if the oil returns to the DS tank, and the oil pressure returns. Any excess oil will be thrown out into the catch tank, but I would not want to risk not pumping oil to the big ends. If the oil returns, but the oil pressure does not, then I'd also guess that one or more of the big ends would also be making a knocking noise ☹️ If the oil pressure returns, then you may have escaped serious bottom end damage. On my similar set up, I have both a low oil pressure switch and prominent LED. The switch set to around 2 bar, so it normally flickers on and off at tickover with the oil hot. I also have a microswitch and a separate LED to indicate when the DS belt tensioner is not where it should be (like if the belt has gone missing...) Both indicators are in my line of sight. I would not be worried about the "mayo" in the catch tank. It's quite normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 9, 2014 Leadership Team Share Posted March 9, 2014 *****DON'T TRY TO REPLACE THE BELT***** I'm not quite sure who's posting which pictures but the one image i can see has the tensioner pulley missing - this will be the reason for the belt being lost. Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halstock Posted March 9, 2014 Author Share Posted March 9, 2014 Now we're getting somewhere - thanks for recognising that I need even the obvious pointing out ! I thought the 'end' of the tensioner looked wrong but didn't know why. It's clear how much one must learn from building a car even with no prior experience. At least I can search for info, given a few clues, and it's gradually coming. One bit I don't know how to do/where to find is when folk talk about the "cap on the dry sump tank", to see if oil is flowing, and presumably to carry out the manual (non-dipstick) method of checking oil level". Can someone point me in the right direction, preferably towards a picture ? Thanks, Andy Edited by - halstock on 9 Mar 2014 08:51:58 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halstock Posted March 9, 2014 Author Share Posted March 9, 2014 OK, so trying to read up on this and I've come across this thread here where the fifth comment recommends a full inspection of big ends, etc. Other threads suggest that the DS pump belt having 'gone' has led to total engine failure so how do I judge whether I'm in serious trouble or whether there's any chance I might have avoided that ? It's looking suspiciously like this is way above my head and I need to take it to a specialist. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7ERRY Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Last year my son lost his ds belt he replaced it then drove it resulting in a full engine rebuild including crank get the bottom end checked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 9, 2014 Leadership Team Share Posted March 9, 2014 Andy, with regard to the belt pulley, all you have remaining is the inner bearing race of the pulley. There will be a screw (IIRC a hex socket) through the centre which you need to remove, the remaining section can then be easily removed. You will need a replacement bearing and the pulley - use the flanged Caterham alloy replacement rather than the o/e plastic Rover version. No.1 and 2 big ends suffer first if the oil feed is lost, these are the ones to initially check. If you're not familiar with engines and particularly the K-Series it will be worth getting some help with this. Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted March 9, 2014 Area Representative Share Posted March 9, 2014 Quoting sforshaw: i can see has the tensioner pulley missing - this will be the reason for the belt being lost. Stu. Oops 😳 'good spot Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted March 9, 2014 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Sorry to hear this, Andy. The belt idler is IMO the weakest point of the K series DS system. I have replaced the tensioner assembly more or less annually, a bit expensive (£60) but cheap in relation to the cost of an engine rebuild. It is possible to source the correct size bearing without buying the whole tensioner, but I have found it difficult to source a sealed version of the bearing complete with high temperature grease. Edited by - Englishmaninwales on 9 Mar 2014 18:34:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halstock Posted March 11, 2014 Author Share Posted March 11, 2014 Guys, thanks for all your help and comments. Having spoken to Jon at Millwood and also my local garage I am inclined to take Richard Price's suggested route - replace the idler pulley and belt, add a little oil and check that the pressure is back up and oil flowing into the DS tank, then take it (gently) from there. The garage suggested that assuming all 'looks' fine at that stage I change the oil immediately to check for anything that shouldn't be there. As it's only about 60 miles old it should be clean enough to see. My questions now relate to the correct parts - I've trawled the forum as much as possible but am I right in thinking that I need : - this pulley here - this bearing here - drive belt ref 3PK765 Any alternative parts I should be considering on the grounds of either cost or utility (or even just the fact that I've found the wrong ones !!) ? Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halstock Posted March 12, 2014 Author Share Posted March 12, 2014 Just wondered if anyone with experience of the K series dry sump could confirm whether I've identified the correct parts in the links in my previous post ? Thanks, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted March 12, 2014 Share Posted March 12, 2014 Andy I'm not sure about the bearing. I did research it a few years back and I did have some difficulty getting the correct one.I can't confirm the part number you have listed. As I posted above I replace the whole auxillary drive tensioner assembly as an annual service item. It is a MG/Rover part 534016810 and available through most motor factors. It has a plastic pulley, which some don't like. I will check the number on the belt tomorrow. Malcolm Edited by - Englishmaninwales on 12 Mar 2014 23:56:18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Looks like the belt on mine is a bit longer, the number is 3PK775. Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 13, 2014 Leadership Team Share Posted March 13, 2014 Andy, mine's also a 3PK775 ..... the "standard" is a 3PK763 but I found it too short. Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halstock Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Malcolm & Stu, thanks for the info. I have the parts on order and will let you know how I get on. Fingers crossed I'll be back on the road in time for the next sunny weekend - gutted not to have been out the last couple of days ☹️ Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted March 17, 2014 Leadership Team Share Posted March 17, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
halstock Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Just thought I should update to say that I changed the tensioner, added a new belt and a bit of oil and all has been hunky dory since. I'm going to change the oil shortly just to check for 'bits' but it appears to be running 100% normally just now. Many thanks to all for your advice This is pretty much the first time I have ever unbolted anything from a car and replaced it other than a wheel (!), so for a simple job I'm feeling a little bit like I actually fixed it myself ! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ. Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 That's good news :) I hope the oil looks nice and clean. Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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