Eric McLoughlin Posted December 20, 2002 Share Posted December 20, 2002 Gosh - there are loads of examples of such "nearly" 'planes. The TSR2 is a very good case. The Avro Canada Arrow would have been a formidable aircraft if the Canadian government hadn't pulled the plug. The North American B-70 Valkyrie remains one of the most impressive aircraft ever built. The Hawker Siddely P.1054, a supersonic vertical take off fighter, would have been a world beater. The Saunders Roe SR.173 jet/rocket interceptor could very well have been the export success that the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter became if the UK government hadn't decided to not spend the money. What about the Soviet Buran space shuttle or Britains Blue Streak ICBM (and potential commercial satellite launcher)? The Boeing Dyna-Soar project, now that would have been something to see in action too. The list is endless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted December 20, 2002 Share Posted December 20, 2002 The B17 is a bit of a puzzle. I've seen pictures of it without wing engines and pictures with them, both in magazines and on the web, so either it is a fake or they removed them later on. Ade , the Osprey is still in the development phase (see here here) but the yanks keep crashing them, theres a crash report here. Re the TSR2 cancellation, ISTR it had a lot of engine problems as well which probably didnt help its case even though they were eventually overcome. The worst aspect of the cancellation was that they ordered all the manufacturing jigs to be destroyed so that even if they realised what a stupid mistake they had they wouldnt have been to easily reverse it. Theres quite an inetresting site here about the TSR2 Nick P8MRA - The green one with red wings. Which is now bent ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ but is being fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric McLoughlin Posted December 20, 2002 Share Posted December 20, 2002 It is common practice for manufacturers to break up jigs and tools fairly expeditiously when a project is axed. The reasoning is that it is not good for workforce morale to have reminders of all their wasted effort lying around. I heard Sir George Edwards (former MD of Vickers) say this in an interview when he was talking about the cancelation of the Vickers 1000 airliner project (another "nearly" aircraft).. I'm sure the TSR2 would have overcome all the technical problems. The engines were essentially the same ones that ended up in Concorde. Cost was the only consideration. Ironically, when the planned replacement (the British specced version of the F-111) ran into technical and cost problems of its own, the UK government realised that was going to be prohibitively expensive as well - and so that got cancelled too. There is a very good book around on Britain's lost aircraft projects from the 1950s and 1960s called "Project Cancelled" which is excellent, if a little depressing. Also, Bill Gunston's book - "Back to The Drawing Board" - covers many of the downright disastrous and dangerous aircraft built over the last 100 years. Very entertaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffiths Posted December 20, 2002 Share Posted December 20, 2002 The way the F4 was operated in the UKADR made Buccs and Jags easy pickings in the LL environment with the AIM-7e / AIM-9L. The Spey conversion was of course less able at med/hi level, but the weapon took the strain. If you ever needed an aeroplane to go to war in (in it's time) the F4 had no equal in either the GA or AD roles. Let no one say that the Lightning was a good AD aircraft, it was a lot of fun, but as a weapons system - useless Peter 7 Rosina C7 PRG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted December 20, 2002 Author Share Posted December 20, 2002 I'm sure I heard of an RAF Jaguar beating a USAF F16 in a dogfight a few years back... Maybe the pilot had something to do with it.... HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Griffiths Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 The 'kill claim' happened outside of the exercise timing but the Jag driver got excited and perpetuated the story 😳 Peter 7 Rosina C7 PRG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YW Sin Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 Why is this Thread in test area??? Any way, my personal choice of aircrafts are: Lockheed Back bird, Cos it is still the fastest and looks like it was designed in 22nd Century dispite beign developed in the 60s. Harrier, Cos it can take off and land on my apartment roof. Mustang, Cos it was one the finest and the latest of the prop powered fighters. Concord, Cos it shows Europe can do it better than the rest (if they put their mind in to it). Spitfire, Cos of its timeless good looks and the "good guy" image. Stealth figher, Cos of it's incredibly original approach to aircraft design and problem solving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Birtwisle Posted December 21, 2002 Share Posted December 21, 2002 The test area is the "bikesheds" of Blatchat. We lurk here because some "people" (a term used losely!) complained that we were enjoying ourselves too much in ChitChat. ooohhhhhhhhhh you chose a Harrier ... Rach will like you S713UMY 1.8K Viper Blue and Black Edited by - abirtwisle on 21 Dec 2002 23:27:07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YW Sin Posted December 22, 2002 Share Posted December 22, 2002 Sounds good. I will join you guys (and girls)from time to time! ~~~ standard 1.7 X-flow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave hard Posted December 23, 2002 Share Posted December 23, 2002 so did all you plane fanatics watch Scrapheap Challenge last night 🤔 three teams making replica planes using period materials and tools dating back to around 1910 ish. Needless to say the Brits beat the Yanks and the French ❗ 😬 But, I'm sure that was a 7 one of the French team was driving in the team intros clip was only a couple of seconds but it looked very much like it. Right, off to the ancestral home now for a week of seasonal overindulgence. Looks like my posting rate will drop over the next week ☹️ Merry Christmas Bikeshedders Caterham 21 VHPD - one of the few Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric McLoughlin Posted December 23, 2002 Share Posted December 23, 2002 It was very interesting, although I am sure none of the materials used was "scrap" in the normal sense. All the components looked brand new and, no doubt, the FAA official would not have allowed any of those 'planes even attempt to fly if any of the components were sub-standard. There is no way that all the turnbuckles needed to tension the bracing wires would have been left lying around a scrap yard. Also, the fitting of the fuel tank, pipes and pumps was totally glossed over together with stressing tests and determining the centres of garvity and lift. I am not absolutely convinced that all the work was completed within the twenty hour time limit either, I actually thought that the Brits cheated in the sense that the 'plane they built was essentially a modern microlight bi-plane. No 'plane looked like that in 1903-10. The Yanks and French entered much more into the spirit of the task by designing and building aircraft that looked like they belonged to early 20th century aviation. The American 'plane exhibited all the flaws of a 1909 design, lack of lateral stability (which is why they never attempted a turn) and a tendency for one wing to develop more lift than the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted December 23, 2002 Share Posted December 23, 2002 I thought the scrapheap programme was superb, although I do tend to agree with the opinion they'd never do it in 20 hours and also that almost all the materials were new. Plus i would have thought that the FAA guy would have been monitoring progress along the way as well. Nevertheless it was fascinating to see them take to the air There is a thread here on the C4 website although there havent been many comments so far Nick P8MRA - The green one with red wings. Which is now bent ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ but is being fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric McLoughlin Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 On the subject of "building aircraft" - one of my Christmas prezzies was the book "The History of Airfix". It brought back a lot of memories of my childhood, like toddling off to my local newsagents in Dublin every couple of weekends or so to buy a bagged Series 1 kit for 2/6. Or, on special occasions (birthdays etc), going into Woolworths in Dublin city centre and being able to chose a Series 2 or 3 boxed kit from the rows laid out on the counters in fron of the shop assistants. I used to have to stand on my tippy toes to be able to see over the lip of the counter (I still do!!!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Me too - I built dozens of kits from planes to tanks to cars and anything else that caught my fancy. The last one I did was the Tamiya 1:24 lotus 7 series 2 but that was about 10 years ago, I dont seem to find the time these days. In my early days the instructions were actually written properly, eg 'assemble left aileron using parts 29 and 30' whereas later on it was all just diagrams with no writing at all. I learnt loads about aeroplanes just from reading the instructions as I put them together As soon as my boys are old enough I'm going to get them started , the oldest is 5 and a half so I have a year or so to wait. Nick P8MRA - The green one with red wings. Which is now bent ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ but is being fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric McLoughlin Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 Nick - you're absolutely right about the educational value of the old style written instructions. That point is actually made in the book. I suppose the drive for exports means we'll never see them again. There are some useful stats quoted in the book. Airfix's most successful year was 1975 when they moulded 20 million kits. By 1981 they were in receivership and, following two changes of ownership, are now producing around 3 million kits per year. Another worrying stat is that the average age of modellers in the UK is now 42. If the kit companies want to stay in business, they'll have to try a lot harder to recruit the "pocket money" brigade back into the fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 the average age of modellers in the UK is now 42 Oh dear - guess how old I will be this year ....... I have to say that I always found that Tamiya kits were better quality than Airfix so this may have contributed to their demise - it got to the point where if both companies made a kit of the same thing I would always buy the Tamiya over the Airfix (and Airfix over Revell.....). As I've not made any kit for 10 years and the one before that was probably 25 years ago ( ) I dont know what the situation is today. Nick P8MRA - The green one with red wings. Which is now bent ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ but is being fixed Edited by - Nick Woods on 2 Jan 2003 09:48:52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric McLoughlin Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 The quality of Airfix kits varies hugely, depending very much on the age of the moulds. Some of the kits currently available date back to the late 1950s and early 1960s (eg. Hawker P1127, De Havilland DH88 Comet Racer). Standards in those days were very much lower than they are today so it's a bit unfair to compare a kit of that era with the latest Tamiya or Hasegawa "Superkit". The great thing about Airfix is that they virtually kick started the model kit industry, especially in the UK, because of their distribution deal with Woolworths and their "pocket money" prices. Even today you can pick up a Series 1 Airfix model for £2.49 (I've even seen them priced as low as £1.99). In addition, many of the subjects covered by Airfix over the decades are now extremely unlikely to be produced by anyone else. Items such as the Bristol Superfreighter, Vickers Vanguard and Hawker Siddeley Trident were only ever covered by Airfix and would be commercial suicide for a model producer today. The other "big" manufacturer of my childhood were "Frog" who, in many cases, produced an even more esoteric line up of models compared to Airfix. Unfortunately, Frog failed to make it into the 1980s and eventually most of their moulds ended up behind what was then the Iron Curtain. What is interesting is that many former Frog models are re-appearing in UK shops underr the auspices of companies such as Eastern Express and Modelcraft. Revell also acquired some of the old Frog moulds, and, following a tidy up of these molds, have re-issued such Frog classics as the Bristol Blenheim Mk1, Avro Shackleton MR3 and De Havilland Sea Vixen. I've even been able to obtain a Frog Armstrong Whitworth Whitley recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Woods Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 I'd forgotten all about Frog, but now you mention it I did make quite a few of those as well. I keep thinking that maybe I should get a kit and let the kids watch me make it up, so long as Alex (2 1/2) keeps his mitts off - (he turned my PC off the other day - 'daddy what this button for' ) Nick P8MRA - The green one with red wings. Which is now bent ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ 🙆🏻 ☹️ but is being fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric McLoughlin Posted January 2, 2003 Share Posted January 2, 2003 2 1/2 is probably a bit on the young side I'd say. They'd be more likely to want to eat the bits than glue them togther. The demise of the mass market plastic kit began for two reasons. The advent of the "Star Wars" generation and the introduction of computer games. Both had a major impact in the late 70s and early 80s. I'm sure the closeness of World War 2 to my generation played a big part in my interest in kits. When I was ten I was reading a steady diet of British comics whch featured loads of war stories and (usually) reasonably acurate portrayals of the the fighting machines of the war. Also, the 60s was full of block-buster war movies like "The Longest Day", "The Great Escape" and "Battle of Britain" all of which helped fire the imagination of a ten year old. Cost is also now a major issue. It costs up to £400,000 to set up an injection moulding machine for a new "hi-tec" kit. That is a serious impediment to being adventurous with your choice of subject matter. High labour costs in Western Europe have also meant that most moulding now goes on in either Eastern Europe or China. Go to www.hannants.co.uk for a look at what is available in kits today. The market really has moved on a lot compared to twenty or thirty years ago. Although the big manufacturers have either gone bust or produce much more limited ranges, the number of small specialist manufacturers has exploded. There are companies who specialise in canopies, decals, alternative parts, conversions etc. It's bewildering. You could, in theory, pay £2.99 for an Airfix Spitfire and then spend another £20.00 on all the after market add ons. Definitely not a pocket money hobby any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morls Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 An interesting story from the last world war was the first Luftwaffe plane to be brought down on England, it happened in the field opposite my house (the village in the first picture). The story should be here: here Mark ☹️ My Caterham Silver Jubilee No. 7 is for sale ☹️ But it's OK, I've got another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric McLoughlin Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Very interesting account. it demonstrates very well the extreme vulnerability of crew members in the He 111 and the ineffectiveness of its defensive armament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FH Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Is that the Gp Capt Peter Townsend 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boonie Hound Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 An uncle of mine used to tell of his days in the Home Guard - very Dad's Army it seemed. One night he and the rest of his platoon took a German Bomber crewman prisoner after he was caught in a farm outbuilding trying to stuff his parachute down a toilet. Apparently they only knew the German for hands up and they were all very happy when the airman did surrender. I think the story was in the telling especially when you imagine these men with pitchforks and the odd shotgun surrounding a barn at night. "You should have seen the size of his pistol" he would tell us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevSull Too Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Did anyone catch the documentary on Sky (Discovery/History/etc channel) about the Antonov 225? What an awesome plane!Weighs almost twice as much as the C5 Galaxy, and has almost twice the wing area of the Boeing 747...... Very interesting tale of its downfall and rebuild. 😬You laugh at me because I'm different, I laugh at you because you're all the same. 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric McLoughlin Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 The An-225 was one of the stars of the 1990 Farnborough Air Show. Despite its huge size it put on quite a lively performance. Unfortunately, after the cancellation of the Soviet Buran Space Shuttle, the 225 became a 'plane looking for a mission. It ended up becoming delapidated. Hopefully, with it back in the air it may visit the UK again. The story of the Home Guard capture of the German pilot reminds me of a similar story from Ireland. A USAAF B-24 Liberator bomber crash landed in a field in rural Ireland. A local branch of the Irish LDF (Local Defence Force) rushed to the scene and captured the entire crew using a shotgun. The first thing they asked the American crew to do was hand over their personal weapons. Once handed over, these guns were then passed around the LDF people who then used them to ensure none of the Americans tried to make a run for it. The shotgun was the only weapin they'd had in their posession. The Irish Free State was, of course, neutral in WW2 so ALL "foreign" airmen were liable to be captured andinterned by the Irish authorities. "Allied" airmaen tended to repatriated fairly quickly, sometimes within hours. Germans were locked up in the Curragh Internment camp for the duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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