Cam timing with verniers

[pandjack]

Hi again!

 

I currently have the belts & crank pulley off my k series R400 in search of a front-of-engine oil leak, & will be replacing the crankshaft & camshaft oil seals as a matter of course (any do's/dont's on this also gratefully appreciated). Having stripped everything down it occurred to me that this was the obvious time to replace the standard cam pulleys with verniers for which I'm in the process of acquiring. A couple of questions therefore :

 

1) Is this a worthwhile exercise & can I expect to see any noticeable improvement in engine performance (I have an MBE ECU re-map planned to address other woes afterwards)

 

2) How do I time the standard cams properly/accurately? - I've reviewed the DVA website but all the ref's are to 'desired settings' for piper cams......??

 

Many thanks in anticipation

[Englishmaninwales]

crankshaft & camshaft oil seals as a matter of course (any do's/dont's on this also gratefully appreciated).

 

Make sure you use a genuine Rover crankshaft seal. I used an after market one which turned out to be undersize which promptly fell out. Makes a dreadful oily mess.

[Graham D]

Sorry. I didn't read your post thoroughly.

 

I’ve removed my reply as irrelevant.

 

Graham

 

 

Edited by - Graham D on 23 Apr 2013 01:34:42

[oilyhands]

The R400 cams are Piper cams, they are the 872 profile.

 

Settings are

 

125 thou lift at TDC inlet

105 thou lift at TDC exhaust

 

Oily

[gundersen]

I fitted verniers to my 140bhp k-series, and while they didn't change the top end bhp, the made a noticeable difference in the midrange. The engine pulled better through the revs.

Also the idle got more lumpy, but hey we can't win 'em all

[pandjack]

Many thanks for the prompt responses guys

 

Oily - I'm absolutely certain my car's standard k series R400 (2004) so it will definitely be these cams will it? I'm not doubting your considerable knowledge but being an enthusiastic novice, & never having tackled anything like this before I'm double checking everything as I go along! Also, any tips/advice on swapping the pulleys/setting up/timing the cams beyond the procedure on the DVA website?

 

Thanks again

[gundersen]

I have used the procedure on DVA's site three times now, and it works very well. The only difficult part is making a dial extension that will allow the dial feeler to rest comfortably on the valve follower, but with a little trial and error it usually works out.

I used two analog dials as I found the digital dials to be a bit pricy.

 

Ohhh, and remember to take out the spark plugs, otherwise you will need a proper strong arm to rotate the crank...don't ask me how I know

[oilyhands]

I try not to post anything unless I am certain.

 

Everything you need to know is on the cam timing page.

 

OIily

[myothercarsa2cv]

Re the front crank seal, when removing the old one, be very careful you don't scratch the crank with whatever you're removing the seal with...! Haynes manual is your friend - here.

[pandjack]

Thanks guys.

 

Oily - Not in any way doubting you - just me being an insecure novice!!

[pandjack]

Hi again

 

Having now replaced crankshaft/camshaft oil seals & oil pump gasket I will finally get round to fitting my verniers later in the week.

 

I've downloaded the DVA guide to fitting & timing in verniers as referred by Oily & this all seems to make sense, but browsing the Piper Cams website this evening found this :

 

To check your cam timing, you will need a 360 degree protractor and dial gauge. The engine must be set at TDC and the protractor bolted to the crank pulley. Attach the dial gauge so that the foot is resting on the valve spring cap (or follower on OHC engine). Attach a pointer to the engine and zero the protractor. The engine is now at TDC with the protractor reading zero.

 

Turn the engine until full lift is first shown on dial gauge. Note number of degrees (e.g. 106 degrees ATDC), continue to turn the engine and note when lift starts to reduce (e.g. 110 degrees ATDC). True full lift position will, in this case, be 108 degrees. Your figures will differ but true full lift is at midway point.

 

The correct full lift position for your cam is shown on attached information sheet.

 

I'm now confused!! What's all the crankshaft protractor mullarky - is this necessary or is it an alternative way of achieving the same result?

 

[oilyhands]

The piper method is just an alternative , dated and in my view inherently innacurrate and difficult way of timing your cams. Forget about doing it that way, just follow the instructions on my website. If you don't trust the instructions then don't use them, but the more you read and search the Internet the more conflicting and often incorrect advice you will find. I've timed over 600 sets of K series cams and countless people have followed the methodology to do their own. if I were doing it wrong then I think I would have found out by now.

 

Oily

 

Edited by - oilyhands on 1 May 2013 08:13:31

[pandjack]

Many thanks for the quick response Oily

 

I have every faith in your advice, & as stated previously, just me being unnecessarily cautious as an insecure novice!

[Mark w]

Quoting oilyhands: 

The piper method is just an alternative , dated and in my view inherently innacurrate and difficult way of timing your cams. Forget about doing it that way, just follow the instructions on my website. If you don't trust the instructions then don't use them, but the more you read and search the Internet the more conflicting and often incorrect advice you will find. I've timed over 600 sets of K series cams and countless people have followed the methodology to do their own. if I were doing it wrong then I think I would have found out by now.

 

Oily

 

Edited by - oilyhands on 1 May 2013 08:13:31

 

Just follow Daves advice , he fitted verniers to my R400 K and I never looked back ,

 

 

[pandjack]

Sorry - final numpty question (promise!) re DVA notes :

 

iv) says 'Select the cylinder that has both valves slightly open (it will be 1 or 4)'

 

I presume 'both' refers to both inlet valves OR both exhauast valves (ie not both inlet valves AND exhaust valves) ?

 

Thanks

[shn7]

Just follow Daves advice , he fitted verniers to my R400 K and I never looked back ,

 

Did he nick your mirrors whilst fitting the verniers then 😬

[gundersen]

Quoting pandjack: 

I presume 'both' refers to both inlet valves OR both exhauast valves (ie not both inlet valves AND exhaust valves) ?

You presume wrong Either no. 1 or 4 cylinder will (or should) have both the inlet and the exhaust valves ever so slightly opened at TDC. It is this lift you are measuring when you do the timing.

[Mark w]

Quoting Steve Newman: 

Just follow Daves advice , he fitted verniers to my R400 K and I never looked back ,

 

Did he nick your mirrors whilst fitting the verniers then 😬

 

No , the opposite .

[7 wonders of the world]

So long as you establish true TDC first you will find LATDC method very straight forward, OE timing marks are often very vague and really ought not to be relied upon.

[pandjack]

SORTED!! Many thanks to all for help & advice, esp oily for the PM responses. As he says in his article 'it's easier to do than type, & intuitive too'

[pandjack]

Had the car re-mapped/dyno'd to the new cam timings yesterday & worthwhile improvements in both BHP & torque evident, but the real improvement is delivery -the curves are unbelievable when compared to the previous ones - so smooth & progressive.

 

Both cams were badly retarded on the standard pulleys which I guess is typical of the 'safety' margins in the factory settings when constrained to the nearest full tooth on the belt - would recommend the upgrade to anyone looking to improve engine power/torque & overall tractability without spending a fortune

 

Thanks again for the help/advice along the way Oily.