pandjack Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Hello again My oil leak (original post 'R400 oil leak' 13/04) has now developed to a total non-runner. Recent events can be summarized viz : Relatively minor oil leak from front of engine (crankshaft or camshaft oil seals/oil pump to engine block seal?) resulted in me over-filling to compensate for my paranoia of oil starvation pending strip-down & sort out planned for this coming weekend Overfill resulted in oil mist being blown out of the top of the catch tank & all over the engine bay, shortly followed by difficult starting, reluctance to idle/hunting, mis-fires, running on 3, general popping & banging, & then today when attempting to start up to drive half a mile for an engine bay steam clean to make it a little easier to identify the source of the oil leak.....nothing. Engine spins over but absolutely no indication of any cylinder firing whatsoever I fitted new spark plugs a couple of weeks ago to address hesitant starting/initially running on 3 & this made a huge difference (old plugs were a little sooty but not oiled or wet) prior to the oil-fest. Although the car is a 2004 it's only covered 5000 miles due to being laid up for most of its life prior to me acquiring it last year at which time I had it fully serviced & the MBE ECU re-mapped by Daytuner to address over-fuelling As a starter for ten I'll be replacing the ignition leads, dizzy cap & rotor arm tomorrow - beyond this it'll be the prioritized list of coil/TPS/lambda etc before seeking diagnostics. I can't help thinking the oil leak has caused the problem as the car hadn't missed a beat up until then. I'm focussing on electrical gremlins at the mo but any pointers whatsoever would be much appreciated. Many thanks in anticipation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oily Mick Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Fuel pump, or it's fuse? Can you hear it running? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Inertia switch on bulkhead on passenger side. This cuts supply to fuel pump. Press down on rubber top to reset it. Assume immobiliser is disarming ok ? You should be able to hear the fuel pump run when you turn the ignition on. As above ... check fuses. The ECU fuse should be changed from a 20A to a 30A .... CC bulletin many years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I would not recommend that you steam clean the engione bay and would use Comma Hyperclean to remove any oil. I suggest you remove all the spark plugs and check to see if you have a spark and that the fuel pump primes when you turn on the ignition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandjack Posted April 18, 2013 Author Share Posted April 18, 2013 Thanks guys Checked fuel pump & ECU fuses - both OK. Fuel pump running & pressurising injectors (fuel sprays out when removed from fuel rail. Checked inertia switch & this is depressed. Checked imobilizer & it's disarming OK. I'll be fitting new dizzy cap, rotor arm & ignition leads this eve, & will then check for sparks @ plugs. Also planning to power down the ECU, disconnect all relevant connectors in the ignition loom, clean with Halfords electrical contact cleaner & re-assemble. Will it be OK to clean the various sensors/senders with this without causing damage? (esp air pressure sender & lambda) If I remove the fuel rail/injectors intact & turn the engine over should I see fuel spraying out of the injectors? Take your point about the steam clean - I was wondering?? Will follow your advice & do it the 'safe' way!! One step at a time........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I would only use the contact cleaner on the plugs and terminals not the sensors. I would also not remove the fuel rail as I doubt this will be necessary and you will see unburnt fuel on the spark plugs if the car fails to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandjack Posted April 18, 2013 Author Share Posted April 18, 2013 Done all of the above & big fat healthy sparks from all plugs when taped to rocker cover & engine turned over. Ignition sequence is : Turn key to position 1 - nothing (which is usual) ; position 2 - click from behind dash (immobilizer dis-arming?) ; position 3 - dash lights come on & 2-3 second whirr/buzz from behind dash (fuel pump priming?) followed by click from starter motor area (solenoid?) ; push starter button - engine spins over but still no sign of any cylinder firing I then removed the fuel rail & injectors & spun the engine over but no fuel coming out of injectors? Assuming the fuel pump is working (because of the whirr/buzz) I'm now thinking throttle position sensor of something else electronic not signalling the injectors to 'inject'. Any further thoughts much appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Fuel pump is in tank ... not behind dash. What sort of immobiliser ? If Rover remote with two buttons, you have to press unlock button before turning ignition on. LED on dash must extinguish before you turn ignition on. Edited by - Stationary M25 Traveller on 18 Apr 2013 21:06:46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Just a thought, assuming std rover immobiliser, then you need to re sync the fob to the immobiliser if you've disconnected the power at some point. Press the lock button 5 times to re sync. You'll hear lots of clicks and led flashes fast. Once led flashes slow, disarm and retry starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bio Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Is the fuel rail being pressured but the Injectors not opening ? There is a grey multi pin plug under the roller barrels that feed the many things. Unpug and spray clean the contacts and make sure none of the pins have pushed back. Try a little Easystart spray in the induction and if it fires it must be fuel. Good luck. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Fuel pump priming is a high-pitched whine from the fuel tank area when you turn the key 1 click from 'off' position. If you don't have this, then you'll have no fuel pressure! Is immobiliser deactivated before you turn key? How do you know? If fuel pump isn't priming, then with the ign in pos. 1, does it prime if you short the terminals on the fuel cutoff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 It's a while since I had a K, can anyone let us know what the immobiliser immobilises? I know it allows starter motor to turn, and doesn't allow injectors to fire. Does anyone know whether it allows the fuel pump to prime when it's in the 'car immobilised' status? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 I understand it isolates the fuel pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 Plausible that the clicking he's hearing from under the dash is the immobiliser complaining that it hasn't been de-activated then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 If this is a R400 it has the MBE ECU (see first post) and therefore not the standard K series immobiliser that is linked to the Mems ECU. pandjack The fuel pump is fitted in the fuel tank near the OSR wheel. When turning on the ignition you should hear the pump whirr/prime if you listen by the OSR wheel. The throttle position sensor will not stop the pump priming. What immboliser do you have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandjack Posted April 19, 2013 Author Share Posted April 19, 2013 Immobilizer is a Toad Security LCV Powerkey (small sealed fob on keyring). When armed the red light on the dash flashes every 5 secs or so, when disarmed (pos 2 of the key) the click coincides with the light going out which has been normal since acquiring the car. The very helpful responses are all steering me to the fuel pump. I have a full weekend free so will be starting with this tomorrow morning. Plan is : 1. Power the fuel pump up direct from the battery to see if it's running. 2. If so, remove the fuel pipe from the end of the fuel rail & spin the engine to see if fuel is pumped out ( I've been told this may only be briefly as the ECU will send a signal to the pump via the relay to indicate the engine isn't running?) 3. Identify the fuel pump relay (not sure how yet) & replace with relay from another circuit (indicators/heated screen) if these are the same. 4. The only other components in the fuel line are the filter & little cotton-bobbin sized thingy at the front end of the fuel rail (no electrical connections to this - it looks like some sort of vacuum unit?). It has a pressed steel cover which doesn't look easy to remove without damaging it so haven't tried yet. 5. Last resort will be replacing TPS & crank sensor although not sure these would totally prevent engine firing at all? Once again many thanks to those who've responded - all comments taken on board. ECU is indeed MBE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 The only other components in the fuel line are the filter & little cotton-bobbin sized thingy at the front end of the fuel rail - This is the fuel pressure regulator and unlikely to be the problem Last resort will be replacing TPS & crank sensor - If the TPS starts to fail the normal symptoms are rough running at partial throttle openings. If the CPS has failed you will not get a spark so these are unlikely to be your problem and they are not cheap to replace. Edited by - Mark Durrant on 19 Apr 2013 21:51:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bio Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 The metal can on the end of the fuel rail is the pressure regulator. Remove the feed connection to the fuel rail and with the ignition on in start mode the fuel pump should prime and squirt fuel out. If you have a supply to the fuel rail but nothing from in injectors as stated previously try the grey multi pin plug, this supplies a feed to the injectors and other things. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 You don't need to take the fuel line apart. If you can't hear the whine of the fuel pump priming before you spin the starter then it's probably not running. If that's the case then it's almost certainly an immobiliser problem or an electrical problem. Work your way up the chain from the fuel pump and think of little tests at each step: 1. Is the fuel pump priming (listen for it when key at position 2) if no, then... 2. Is fuel pump broken? (Brush +ve feed at fuel isolator switch against +ve terminal of battery while listening for pump) if it's working then... 3. Is isolator switch working (continuity test across switch) etc... Edited by - charlie_pank on 20 Apr 2013 07:38:43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandjack Posted April 20, 2013 Author Share Posted April 20, 2013 Spent another few hours on it today working through all of the above & everything checks out, ie pump running & delivering pressure to fuel rail, all pins in grey connector under throttle bodies cleaned, re-checked/cleaned everything I'd already done again - still nowt. Spoke to Damian at Daytuner & booked it in - went through the whole thing with him & he reckons it's either the ECU or a fault in the wiring between this & the injectors - both of which are beyond my DIY capabilities - so off to Daytuner it'll have to be. Thanks for the help & advice along the way - I'll post the remedy when known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Do you know anyone with the same car from whom you can borrow an ECU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted April 21, 2013 Leadership Team Share Posted April 21, 2013 Quoting Mark Durrant: The only other components in the fuel line are the filter & little cotton-bobbin sized thingy at the front end of the fuel rail - This is the fuel pressure regulator and unlikely to be the problem Failure of the FPR is not unknown, borrow a replacement and see if it helps. This could have been the cause of the original fouling of the plugs. Stu. Edited by - sforshaw on 21 Apr 2013 07:59:28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandjack Posted April 21, 2013 Author Share Posted April 21, 2013 Don't know anyone running the same ECU unfortunately, nor anyone with the same FPR in their fuel line. Anyone with either close to York & prepared to assist would be much appreciated......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandjack Posted May 7, 2013 Author Share Posted May 7, 2013 UPDATE : Borrowed 967 ECU with same software (Regin - you're a star!) & copied my map across - started first prod, re-fitted my ECU &...........started first prod!! Idled for 5 mins (although this required throttle input as it wouldn't tick over) then bit the bullet & went for a short blat up the road. A bit rough for the first 1/2 mile before pulling as normal through the gears, LOTS of popping & banging on the overrun (which it didn't do before). Still won't idle when fully warmed up. Popping & banging is better than total silence but now more puzzled than ever as to what the problem was (& may still be lurking) Booked in with Damian @ Daytuner Thurs for a proper diagnostics on the RR, new lambda sensor at the ready if required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoLimits Posted May 7, 2013 Share Posted May 7, 2013 I would go for a dry joint - loose wire - disturbed when you replaced the ECU. It simply would not have run on your ECU afterwards otherwise. IMHO of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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