Super Sport R conversion

[Charlie W]

Can anyone help?

 

I spoke to Caterham yesterday and they advised me that I cannot get a standard SS conversion for my W reg 1.6K. The reason is that I have an EU2 engine management system. Is there any way round this? They then told me I could get the SS R conversion (160 bhp) for approx £3,500 incl VAT and fitting. Does this seem a fair price?

 

My car is a Road Sport with a 5 speed gearbox. What else would I have to do to make this conversion work? Do I need a light weight fly wheel, LSD, 6 speed box and better exhaust to get the best out of it? Obviously the above items would all help but which are necessity?

 

If you have any ideas please let me know.

 

Charlie

 

[robmar]

Charlie - for VFM your best bet is to look at DVA power here

 

i doubt you will hear anything bad about DVApower on this forum

 

and think yourself lucky that you do not have an EU3 engined car as I have been waiting 18 months so I can upgrade my car

 

rob

 

Edited by - robmar on 13 Nov 2002 15:47:25

 

Edited by - robmar on 13 Nov 2002 15:50:40

[Colin Grundy]

Charlie

The R sport conversion differs from the original SS conversion in that includes the VHPD throttle bodies, hence the price.

Desirable if your a lottery winner, but agree with Rob, do what wer'e doing, give Dave Andrews a ring.

ROB: you must have seen the good news from Dave on Friday. The EU£ compatable plug for the Emerald is now a reality.

Cheers

[V7 SLR]

THREE AND A HALF GRAND???? MADNESS..!!!

 

You're lucky you have EU2. This means you can directly benefit from DVA's wisdom.

 

So, assuming you have a standard engine, 3 and half GGs will buy you (approximate prices):

 

Throttle bodies - £500

Wild-as-a-pair-of-trousers cams - £300

Head job - £mmm around 500 at a guess

Verniers - £150

M3DK - £600

Exhaust (assuming you've a standard 4-1 collector inside the engine bay) - £450 (check out the powerspeed bulk buy elsewhere)

Ancilliaries - £Kerching

 

... and approaching or slightly exceeding 200bhp with (and this is the important bit) an ECU which can be remapped for future upgrades.

 

OR (my fav option):

 

a 6-speed box (a couple for sale on this site), a changed CWP and slightly less engine modifications by DVA.

 

Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours

 

[scooby dooby doo]

getting near 200 will require a bit more V7...

to the nearest hundred each time:

valves 200

valve springs 100

guides 100

mapping 200

airbox/trumpets etc 200

pistons 500

gaskets, seals, oils 100

 

so it comes to 4k. But you have 200 instead of 160.

Plus assembly labour.

 

HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU

[simonstevens]

if u want an eu3 loom which i believe you need for the conversion give me a ring

07799685440

[robmar]

colin -

 

Charlie - the only possible upside of the caterham solution is if you ever came to sell, it would be a factory upgrade whichmight mean it commanded a slightly higher premium. However IMO If you ever had to sell and did sell via most of the online forums/lists then having a DVA upgrade wouldn't harm or lower the value of your car, it may in some cases be more attractive...

 

Simon - it is not as simple as just the loom the Eu3 engines themselves are different in some respects, plus charlie would still nee an ECU. Sorry not trying to do you out of a sale. PS does the loom include the coils? maybe better to email me offline so not to high jack this thread

 

rob

[dino ferrana]

The Supersport R conversion uses the Roller Barrel THrottle Bodies not the Superlight R ones. THis is the reason for quite a bit of the price probably as I imagine those Magnesium castings for the RB's cost an arm and a leg!

 

DVA has a very good name on this site but just a word of warning: If you do anything except the Caterham route they will not take it in part exchange or have it for sale. This may not be a problem for you but if you are looking at a new car (or used) from Caterham then it could be a problem.

[V7 SLR]

Why would Charlie need an EU3 loom if he has an EU2 engine?

 

Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours

 

[heavenly7]

Quote - "The Supersport R conversion uses the Roller Barrel THrottle Bodies not the Superlight R ones. THis is the reason for quite a bit of the price probably as I imagine those Magnesium castings for the RB's cost an arm and a leg!"

 

Are you saying the throttle bodies fitted as part of the Supersport R conversion are better than those on the Superlight?

 

Do Caterham port the head as part of their package?

 

 

 

[Charlie W]

Thanks, everyone for all your help. The R conversion does include porting the head. I think they also said that they bore the engine out to 1.8ltrs so in fairness its probably not that bad in terms of value.

 

Does anybody know the answer to my other question about whether or not you need a 6 speed box etc to make the conversion worthwhile or can I just do the work on my engine and leave the rest of the car as standard?

 

This could be a very very expensive Christmas if I have the balls to do this!!

😬

[scooby dooby doo]

I think I'd take a 6speed box before any serious engine work. If your 1.6 is std then I'd say fit cams and an emerald and get the 6 speed as first priorities. At a later date you can to the work to the head and pistons etc to get to 200 bhp or so.

 

Heavenly - TBs come in 3 main typres for the K. The SLR uses the TBs off a Rover V6 and has a nasty manifold in the way as well. Slightly better are the Jenvey direct to head items (no nasty manifold). Better again are the roller barrel ones. But they cost a LOT more and have poor light throttle behaviour.

 

FWIW I think Peter C's uber-K used Jenveys to produce over 250 bhp...

 

All are MASSIVELY better than the standard plenum which is restrictive and gives a very fluffy throttle response in comparison.

 

HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU

[tom7]

Only the very early SLR's used KV6 TB's.

For a long time they have used bodies similar to Jenveys but supplied by PTP. These are the same bodies that were fitted Lotus Exige and 190bhp cars.

Tom

[scooby dooby doo]

ooh ❗ didn't know that - thanks .

I was meaning to say that the main problem was the manifold, you point further proves that.

 

HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU

[V7 SLR]

Thanks, everyone for all your help. The R conversion does include porting the head. I think they also said that they bore the engine out to 1.8ltrs so in fairness its probably not that bad in terms of value.

Charlie, There is absolutely no way that Caterham will port the head. If it requires a changed head, for a VHPD head, then you can be assured that it will have had very minor "fettling" by Minster, who supply the heads to Caterham. A standard VHPD head is capable of 190bhp anyway.

 

Also, "boring" a K series engine is not done. The K block is very different to any block you may have seen before, looking more like a number of "braces" to hold the liner. The liner is what you may know as the cylinder and looks like a cylinder... i.e. you can take it out and hold it in your hand, like a large bog roll tube.

 

If you seriously had £3500 then you could turn your 1.6K into quite a potent 1.6K or a slightly less potent 1.8K. To convert from 1.6 to 1.8 will require a new crank and rods, resulting in a bottom-end rebuild. I'm not sure I'd want to go down this route if I were you. Read on...

Does anybody know the answer to my other question about whether or not you need a 6 speed box etc to make the conversion worthwhile or can I just do the work on my engine and leave the rest of the car as standard?

You really ought to try before you buy. The 6-speed box is a gem. I've said it before but those people who decry the 6-speed box either haven't tried one, or are just miffed that they've not got one (or they've got a non-standard 5-speed box, which can be just as good).

 

The problem with the 5-speed box as standard is that the ratios are totally unsuited to the Caterham. Plenty has been written before about this, so I suggest you do a search on this site. You'll find lots of good opinions.

 

In addition, the 5-speed box has quite a long throw lever, and doesn't give such a lovely feeling to the overall driving experience.

 

There is a BUT though... most cars delivered with a 5-speed box will have a 3.92:1 diff because the 5th gear is overdriven. Essentially, 6th gear in a 6-speed box is the same as the 4th in a 5-speed box which is 1:1. Caterhams supplied with a 6-speed box as standard have a different diff to account for the lower top gear, namely 3.62:1. If you have a 5-speed box and switch to a 6-speeder, you will find motorway cruising exactly the same as if you only changed into 4th. To get the longer "legs" you will need to change the diff too. Except that you won't. You will only need to change the CWP, which is an altogether cheaper affair. You'll still need a professional to do this though, so I'd look for Road & Race Transmissions or SPC's phone numbers and give them a call.

 

For all engine work you should be talking to Dave Andrews, but understand that Dave's conversions are not Caterham-sanctioned and so will affect your resale value IF YOU SELL TO CATERHAM. If you sell privately you may find a DVA converted engine enhances the value of the car, as Dave has earned tremendous respect amongst many of us. I have a DVA engine, but I wouldn't sell it for twice its value.

 

Lastly, throttle bodies... A lot of bull**** is written about roller throttle bodies, but apart from the pose-value there is nothing to be gained over any straight-tube-style throttle body (Jenvey's to be specific). I had (until recently) the original SLR/VHPD throttle bodies with their visually tortuous manifold and saw 204bhp last time I was on the rollers. Had I changed my cams I am certain I would have seen around 220bhp because, although they aren't the prettiest of throttle bodies around, they weren't the limiting factor.

 

I have moved to the Jenvey throttle bodies for 2 reasons:

 

1. I got them cheap

2. I found a buyer for my original ones

 

In addition though, the throttle plates in the Jenvey's are closer to the valve than the original ones were. In fact, they are closer than those in the roller throttle bodies, but that's another discussion. Close throttle plates gives a better throttle response. One of the problems with the plenum system is the distance and volume of air between the single throttle plate and the valves, leading to a "cushioning" of the throttle response.

 

The roller throttle bodies work like the insides of a domestic tap. At full throttle (known as wide open throttle or WOT) there is nothing in the airflow at all. With all butterfly-type throttles you will have a side-on slip of metal, which in theory restricts airflow. In practice our good friend Dave Walker (or Emerald fame) tested a normal throttle body with and without a butterfly installed and could measure no difference on his rolling road. This is why I question the cost of anyone "upgrading" to roller throttle bodies over a set of Jenvey's costing 1/3rd of the price. They appear to offer no measurable better performance, but could possibly offer a slightly worse throttle response (although in practice again, I doubt this is measurable).

 

Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours

 

[scooby dooby doo]

I've got a 6 speed and 3.92 diff. No problems with it...

 

The K comes in two different effective bore sizes. The small size is for 1.1 and 1.4 litre engines, the larger are for 1.6 and 1.8. The latter have the liners touching each other. You can convert from 1.4 to 1.6, I assume it just uses thinner liners rather than boring.

 

There are also two different types of 1.4, the earlier type are not amenable to tuning due to the way the liners locate I believe.

 

HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU

[V7 SLR]

Whether you have problems with a 6-speed box and a 3.92:1 diff or not, it's not what most people would call easy to live with on motorway journeys. In addition, first gear must be painfully low. I think my first is a tad low and I've got a proper diff (just teasing).

 

Roy swapped his 3.92:1 diff for the 3.62:1 because he felt it was too lowly geared. You're just a nut-job Hoopy, so I've had your bedroom installed with steel bars on the windows and locks on the doors.

 

Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours

 

[scooby dooby doo]

I've got 205/60R13 rear tyres now which give me the equivalent of 185s with about a 3.75 diff...

 

Anyway - shorter gearing means I get to change gear more often 😬

 

HOOPY 500 kg R706KGU

[jonhill]

You could get a second hand SS kit from someone moving on to the next stage. Try placing an add in 'Wanted'

[Gridgway]

why won't Caterham do an SS upgrade to an EU2 1.6k? Is it can't or won't?

 

There's a world of difference from thinking about an ss upgrade to thinking of getting 200bhp via DVA or any other route! I would determine what level you want to go to then look at how to do it.

 

There may well be 2nd hand SS kits around if that's the bhp level you want. You can do the same thing the DVA route of course.

 

Graham