paul jacobs Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Looking at that really smart, but overweight rocker cover to make a Zetec look like a BDA/G made me wonder if the Zetec could ever be as good as the more modern Duratec, or whether it would always be one step behind, but in front of a X/F. Maybe some of you Zetec boys could enlighten us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Ask Carl how good Eugene is... and at a fraction of the price! 😬 😬 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Quoting Eugene: Ask Carl how good Eugene is... Live axle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zetec Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 This is my type of thread. £700 engine, stick on some 40's & you have 160bhp. Cheap for an r300 type machine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Quoting Barry: Live axle? Oh yeah!! Ital with LSD 😬 😬 😬 Handles amazingly, and much more fun too! Edited by - Eugene on 17 Jan 2013 23:22:08 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeman Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 There are few people with as varied 7 experience as you Paul, and I suspect you already know the answer to your own question I couldn't offer an opinion cos I'm very biased. Oh go on then 😬, you already have a Seven which IMVHO has the very best Car engine that ever graced the marque. Two questions Paul; 1. Is breaking the car for its constituent parts not viable? 2. Have you ever imagined what an IRS Seven coupled with a Busa engine would be like. Just a thought. Edited by - weeman on 17 Jan 2013 23:31:35 Edited by - weeman on 18 Jan 2013 12:59:17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Quoting Eugene: Quoting Barry: Live axle? Oh yeah!! Ital with LSD 😬 😬 😬 And you don't look as if you weigh very much either so win, win . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molecular--Bob Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Depends how you want to make the power. They are "very" tolerant of boost, and lots of people in the fast ford world do parts for turbo and rotrex supercharging. Not the greatest atmo engine, but cheaper to get a boosted 300hp from this than from an atmo duratec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Both great engines. I had a Zetec before my 2 Duratecs. Zetec is great if you want an easy conversion from a Crossflow. I bought a Crossflow car specifically to do a Zetec conversion. 190-200bhp with cams and head work is quite easy to obtain. If you are happy with that sort of output then there is nothing wrong with a Zetec. To make more power you have to do the usual things like forged pistons, steel rods, bigger valves etc. The best I've seen from one of my Zetecs is 240bhp. A customer in Sweden has been racing this engine for several seasons. It has won some championships too. It was originally built for Mike Riley years ago and has changed hands three times since I built it. It and still going strong with the usual re-builds. It's a very strong engine. I lost interest in the Zetec when The Duratec came along. If you want more normally aspirated power in a more modern engine with a nice head with large valves as standard then the Duratec makes more sense. On the downside it is a much more expensive conversion. Big N/A power is possible though. In 2005 I was invited to Cosworth by one of their engineers I was exchanging information on Duratecs with. Whilst there I had a look around some of their other engines. The WRC turbo engine was based around a Zetec rather than a Duratec. The cast iron block had been milled to lighten it and it was still putting up with the boost of the turbo. As I said it is very strong. I have heard of turbo Duratecs making 520bhp. A customer I sold a couple of engines to managed to coax 700bhp out his. But not for very long! If I hadn't got the Duratec bug I would still have the Zetec in my Seven. I had a lot of fun with the car with that engine in. Now I drive a Ford Focus with a Zetec engine in and a Caterham with a Duratec. As I said I like them both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted January 18, 2013 Author Share Posted January 18, 2013 A bit as I thought, and in the end it always comes down to how much one is prepared to spend. In a perfect world, start with the Duratec and get more power per pound spent, but if one already has a Zetec, then it seems it really won't be as good as a Duratec. Martin, you can read me like a Kindle it seems? 😬 Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Quoting zetec: This is my type of thread. £700 engine, stick on some 40's & you have 160bhp. Cheap for an r300 type machine! R1: £900 engine - stick on the original TBs and ECU and you have 180bhp. Cheap for an r400 plus machine! And probably engine and gearbox are half the weight of the zetec engine alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zetec Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Good info . But.. We werent talking bike engines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Quoting Paul Jacobs: A bit as I thought, and in the end it always comes down to how much one is prepared to spend. In a perfect world, start with the Duratec and get more power per pound spent, but if one already has a Zetec, then it seems it really won't be as good as a Duratec. There are also the limits on installation - I was not (and am not) willing to have the exhaust on the wrong side... 😬 And, I also deliberately spend as little as possible on my 'upgrades' - it's a philosophical thing with me. (I aim for the best performing 7 I can for the lowest pounds spent) So, I see things a bit differently - I am NOT looking for absolute power. I am looking for the best 'performance' (which includes handling, enjoyment, as well as power) that my 7 can produce, without spending a lot of dosh, and without major changes to the other aspects of the car. So, I would say, if you already have a Zetec (or a X-Flow, or other similar configured engine to upgrade) a Zetec can indeed be every bit as good as a Duratec. And in the end, you will get more 'power per pound spent' than with the much more expensive Duratec... 😬 😬 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiffy69 Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 exhaust snob ! 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zetec Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Im a carb ( in the right spot) snob After zetec install it still looks like it may have a x-flow inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birkin S3 ZA. Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 No I dont think so. The main reason for me would be the stroke to bore ratio, not to good for the Zetec 86mm bore 88 stoke. Bigger bore means bigger valves 😬 and faster revving 😬 😬 I would love a Duratec, but my 251hp zetec will do till I build my 2,5 supercharged Duratec. Ford have just lanched the 2,5 ranger, won't be long till some get to the scrap yards. I will be waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I think it all depends on what you want from the engine and how you percieve value for money whats best. If your aspirations are for a reliable N/A 200bhp on the minamum budget then the zetec can acheive this cheaper than the Duratec. Once you start to look for more power the duratec is the cost effective way to go due to its advanced head design and greater valve area and aluminium block. Now if we look at the zetec installation in your CSR my view would be that it makes no economic sense to replace this engine with a N/A duratec. Anthing that is going to make the 600Kg car go is going to cost £9K+ then you have to get an exhaust, reskin the NS + all the other plumbing and logicistical/setup costs. The way ahead must be to use the inherent strength of the zetec and supercharge. Omex retail a kit for the engine together with some mild cams, low compression pistons, steel con rods should get you the right side of 300bhp 200lb ft torque , enough to make things interesting. The only snag/consideration is what gearbox will cope with such grunt but you would face the same problem if you go the N/A 2.3 route with 300Bhp. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted January 18, 2013 Author Share Posted January 18, 2013 Thanks for the summary Rob, I was slowly coming around to that conclusion. As the engine is now fitted, it seems daft to 'unfit' it when it wouldn't be too expensive to go on one of the routes you suggest, hence my question - thanks to all who have contributed so far, especially Ammo and Rob. both for being so generous with their hard earned professional opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Paul, so what have you got??? 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted January 19, 2013 Author Share Posted January 19, 2013 A CSR fitted with a 2.0l 170bhp Zetec by the previous owner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Assuming its a Black Top, it should be easy to get 210BHP or more from it, with little cost or major modification! That's what Eugene has, on 45 Webers. 😬 😬 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted January 19, 2013 Author Share Posted January 19, 2013 Given that it already has a pair of Throttle bodies and an Emerald ECU, what would need doing to get that or more, and for how much? The Omex supercharger looks interesting, but I don't think it would be money well spent, ie it wouldn't be recoverable when the car is sold. Edited by - Paul Jacobs on 19 Jan 2013 16:39:40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 As posted 200bhp is the cut off point for easy tuning of the Zetec FOCUS BLACK TOP, to tune to this level its cams,throttle bodies and if your keen a bit of a head tidy up and have the stock flywheel lightened. To take things further you run into valve piston clearance problems that prevent you from running hotter cams, it is possible to have the pistons pocketed run hotter cams and get 220 bhp with some head work but probably not an economic route over fitting forged pistons as the stock compression ratio is too low for power. The next stage to get up to 250 bhp requires some extensive porting of the head,machining of the head to fit larger cam followers,increased valve sizes, steel con rods,forged pistons, hotter cams,comp valve springs& steel retainers, full engine balance, etc etc in short a full competition engine. On the positive side the engine does not need drysumping the Raceline wet sump copes well on track even in race conditions using slicks. It is unfortunate that the Zetec has never been really developed by the tuners, Possibly the engines lack of potential to compete on power terms with the VX redtop on ultimate power terms and the difficulties faced to tune past 200bhp have seen it past by which I think is a shame as its a good strong engine. I would look into supercharging the engine and consider forced induction through the throttle bodies having first passed through the biggest charge cooler I could fit into the car, stick with the wet sump. A budget of 5K should acheive some usefull grunt. Rob Edited by - Rob Walker on 19 Jan 2013 18:49:38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 See: HERE... 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted January 19, 2013 Author Share Posted January 19, 2013 The calculator is already out........thanks guys 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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