blade_runner Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 When on track and brakeing as late as possible I can't heal 'n toe to save my life, and a little blip of the throttle would be so much kinder to the blade sequential dog box on the down shift. As I'm coming to the end of 4 years of college I'll hopefully have a little more time on my hands at weekends to tinker with the car. So i'm considering trying to make a throttle blipper for the down shift, I'm wondering if a 12V push solenoid like this here mounted in the pedel box would be man enough to open the throttle by a few mm, I would mount a push button on the steering wheel to operate it and have a helicopter style toggle switch on the dash to 'activate' the circuit. So I was just wondering if anyone has tried making a system like this? or are you all heal 'n toe gods 😬 Edited by - blade_runner on 2 Jun 2012 22:02:48 Edited by - blade_runner on 2 Jun 2012 22:04:45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Heel'n'toe gods, I'm afraid 😬 Seriously, it's worth perservering with as it's one of those once-learned-never-forgotten skills that you can transfer to other vehicles. Except that I can only do it in my sevens - I can't contort myself to do it in road cars. Double-declutching is another skill to learn (obviously not in a BEC - I've got a blackbird westie as well as a k-series Caterham by the way). And left-foot braking. Sod-technology - learn it yourself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shn7 Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I'm with Myles, work on your heel'n'toe technique. You may need to adjust the pedals to make it easier but once learned it's easily transferred to other cars whereas I doubt you would take your button and solenoid with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Ought to say that you shouldn't need to contort yourself in a seven. Heel'n'toe is actually ball'n'edge for me. Ball of the foot on the brake pedal and edge of the foot brushing the gas - mebbe with the slightest twist of the foot towards the 11 o'clock position. Concentrate on your braking - just try to catch the throttle at first. I would say that a BEC is probably not an ideal starting position - I started with a tardy k-series, upped my game with a lightened flywheel and then aced it with the BEC - but I'd rather don a dress than have a machine blip for me 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blade_runner Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 FIA approved Nomex dress 😬 lol Maybe in a few weeks when i've got some spare time I'll have to start doing some more road miles and start to practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baz Hemsley Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Ball an edge for me. Has to be done for hill starts. Can't reach the hand brake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dignity Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I found that changing shoes has helped a lot. Struggled a lot with the ultra narrow speetcats but I find it much easier with the slightly wider Piloti's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoLimits Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I have SBD's pneumatic one as part of the new shift system and it's Awsome I never have heel an toed as I always found it distracted from 100% braking in competition. Now this does it all by itself 😶🌫️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Got to agree with the majority here: if you can't heal & toe (ball & edge) you are missing out on a key component of learning to drive well. It may indeed be quicker on the track to have an automated system, but best to get to know how to do it manually first, then decide if you need 'help'. As has been said, look at the pedal layout - a small change can make a big difference. 😬 😬 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoLimits Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 I'll bet I can break harder than you whilst you are tasking your brain with all the heel and toe stuff. I don't deny it's better for the gearbox/engine etc and that it's a fantastic skill but I'll be quicker not doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ. Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 NoLimits said: I'll bet I can break harder than you whilst you are tasking your brain with all the heel and toe stuff. I don't deny it's better for the gearbox/engine etc and that it's a fantastic skill but I'll be quicker not doing it. No doubt your car would be quicker still with traction control. I'd say most people who drive a car with as poor aerodynamics as a Seven are probably more interested in the fun of driving than out right speed, and there is something very satisfying about getting a heel & toe gear change just right Duncan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Heel and toe doesn't have to detract from the braking force. The braking is straight down, the blip is just a little nudge to the right. I agree with everyone else. Heel and toe is not just about blip either, you need to MATCH the revs, you wouldn't be able to do that with a button. Try doing it all the time, by never touching the handbrake, then you'll figure out the best position for you when you're not wringing its neck. Essential 7 driving technique, perhaps you need to play with your pedal positions? My throttle is quite a bit further away from me than the brake, so when I'm pressing on the brake, there it is just to the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy couchman Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 ...and start slowly on quiet roads (or even better off road) driving slowly. Over time you can build up speed. It just sounds sooooo good too 🥰 Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BYKer Will Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 If I still had the blackbird and time to tinker I would love to try having a hand clutch lever on the stick and just 2 pedals like a cart for left foot braking and throttle. If you have ridden bikes the clutch would be very natural to the left hand and left foot braking would make throttle blips on the down shift very easy. Left foot braking would take practice but seems simple on a cart after all . Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 some need all the help they can get - launch control, traction control, throttle blip, sequential paddles, 3k dampers and stickier tyres some go a 1000th slower doing it all analogue 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 ...and start slowly on quiet roads (or even better off road) driving slowly. Over time you can build up speed. Actually - serious suggestion here - because this is how I started out left-foot braking (if you can excuse a bit of play when I lived in Dubai and drove automatics)... I bought a Logitech Gwhatever PC steering wheel set (with h-pattern gear-shift and clutch pedal 😬 ) and spent a lot of time in rFactor in the Caterham. My setup is here (screen is bigger now!) here Anyway, the point is that the kit and simulator *are* that good that you can practise in safety, get your 'muscle-memory' sorted and then start to transfer that to the road. This was really important to me in left-foot braking (but applies to heel'n'toe too) as I was able to 'programme' myself for emergency situations so that I could get back to a conventional pedal-foot arrangement rather than, say, nailing the brake and throttle at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMolloy Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 The Trickshift/Flatshifter system has an optional downshift throttle blip system. It uses a vacuum operated rod to activate the cold start enrichment lever. They claim it enables clutchless downshifts, but I'm not so sure myself... Personally I find it difficult to brake hard enough and with the required sensitivity when I am also concentrating on blipping the throttle. I invariably end up using engine braking as well - which apparently is a no-no for BEC box longevity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 it's a mind thing - everyone can left foot brake when go karting ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Locust Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I'll bet I can break harder than you whilst you are tasking your brain with all the heel and toe stuff. But can you. Aside from the 'tasking the brain' aspect, if you are already braking to the limit for both axles i.e. braking as late as is possible (assume near perfect brake balance for the conditions), a notchy downshift will be enough to cause a rear wheel to skid due to the more harsh, intermittent application of engine braking torque from the downshift. If you overlap braking and turn in are you compromised by uncertain rear grip on downshifting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blade_runner Posted June 4, 2012 Author Share Posted June 4, 2012 I'm still tempted to have a go at making a throttle blipper, then I have the option to try heal & toe or pressing the button. would love one of the closed loop flatshift systems but there just too expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil66 Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 Quoting Mr Locust: I'll bet I can break harder than you whilst you are tasking your brain with all the heel and toe stuff. But can you. Aside from the 'tasking the brain' aspect, if you are already braking to the limit for both axles i.e. braking as late as is possible (assume near perfect brake balance for the conditions), a notchy downshift will be enough to cause a rear wheel to skid due to the more harsh, intermittent application of engine braking torque from the downshift. If you overlap braking and turn in are you compromised by uncertain rear grip on downshifting? +1 Smoothness is THE key when floating on the limit... dumping the clutch without matching revs aint smooth in the slightest... practice enough and it becomes a reflex action - you don't even need to think about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbarossa. Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Sounds like an interesting project. I think that the solenoid you picked might be too small, there is a 22N one in the same range, I would start there. If you mount it on the butterfly, you won't have the friction of the cable to overcome. Throw and dwell - throw could be tuned with a mechanical stop. Maybe some electronics to tune the dwell time? I would put the switch on the gear knob, you won't want to be trying to find a button on the steering wheel when you have already taken one hand off! Failsafe? What about putting a switch on the clutch so that the system is only armed when you press the clutch pedal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie_pank Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 How will you control how much blip to give it? More blip required for slower gearchanges or shifting more than one gear at a time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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