AndrewD Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 Serious question as I toy with whether to buy an R500. What's the "generally accepted" wisdom around engine reliability? What does a "3000 mile engine refresh" mean? Are the later engines different to the earlier ones? Is the ownership experience in any way tinged with nagging doubt? I don't want to open a can of worms, so if anybody has any views I'd be really interested to hear, mail me offline at Andrew.Derodra@diageo.com Thanks Andrew Yellow SLR T777XXX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooby dooby doo Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 The accepted wisdom seems to be that they are pretty reliable these days if looked after. OTOH you can get the same power, cheaper, from after market engine builders. DVA and Roger King spring to mind. HOOPY Membership Number 4136 R706KGU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 Hi Andrew, Don't know if you've noticed this thread here but there's some interesting points on the benefit (or not) of that extra 40bhp. As the comments suggest another option is to upgrade suspension, tyres, brakes and driving style (through tuition - not that I'm suggesting you need it 😳) to get the same lap times from your 190bhp. Anyway I thought you were going for a DVA power upgrade? cheers, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slipper man Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 Difficult one to answer, this. The fact is that after some teething issues, the R500 engine is very reliable now. If you race it, or drive like you are, then the 3,000 mile refresh is a must, and will cost about £2,500 if I have been informed correctly. The difficult bit is, what if you are not a racer, and treat the car carefully, but drive reasonably quickly? My car has done 6,500 miles, 4,000 of which has been on track. I do look after it carefully, but don't drive especially slowly (especially if driving in convoy with ECR or Mr Gen Sec Davis!) It is normally one of the two or three fastest cars at any track day I go to. The engine shows no signs of wear at all. The cylinder pressures are actually better than when new, the oil pressure is as good as ever and it makes no untoward noises. But the engine is beyond its recommended rebuild life, and I don't want it to blow up on me. I think I am resigned to the fact that I will have to at least take the head off this Winter and replace all the valve springs and possibly valves, to be on the safe side. Which is a bit of a pain, but it is a race engine after all. I don't expect to spend more than £1000 on this, so I just need to be aware that the running cost of the car needs to include £500p.a. for maintenance. Is the ownership experience tinged with doubt? For me, to be honest, for the first six months it was, but after that I bagan to realise that this is a reliable piece of kit, and just got on with enjoying it - which I do. A lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew_Bailey Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 Keith, very interested in your reply to this post as I am about to embark on the worrying journey of R500 ownership. Your experience has greatly encouraged me. I too would like to think that providing you do not drive to the absoute max the whole time, respect the rev limit and look after the engine with frequent oil and filter changes etc. the engine should be reliable. Given the quality of the upgraded components this should be the case. How long are you planning to leave it before you refresh your engine? Or are you intending to monitor its condition through testing compression, oil pressure, oil analysis etc. £2,500 is a lot of money, but if you push your luck too far . Edited by - Andrew_Bailey on 15 Oct 2002 17:33:51 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 Just do it and have done with it. I bought a new SLR and wished I'd podded out the extra 5 grand for the 500 - by the time I'm done I'll have spent more than this anyway to obtain the same result ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gridgway Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 especially with the item available here! Private sale so much cheaper that from a dealer. As they say "first person to see it who wants an R500 with aeroscreen and likes blue will buy it"! Graham (put the colour bit in for you Andrew ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Ray Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 Andrew, my R500 has done around 4000 miles of whcih about 3,250 have been on trackdays. I had the bearings changes (FOC) and at the same time, last December, at 2,000 miles, had a top end refresh. The refresh cost £1200. I think this was earlier than really necessary. I have the rev limit set at 8,600 and usually stay below 8,400 (except for the "red mist" moments. I am expecting/hoping that I will get through 2003 (another 2,000 miles) and then get the engine rebuilt. To date it has been completely reliable. Where I have incurred quite a bit of expense is on an air box, apollo tank, oil cooler and quieter silencer. I'd prefer not to add up the bills but I guess that including labour and VAT this lot come to around £3,000. So, if you are looking at a used car I'd advise you to make sure that all these bits come with it. Although not a special R500 part I have just added predictive timing to the Stack dash and would recommend this. Of course its only of use if you can put a beacon out. For what its worth I am thinking hard about a full roll cage over this winter. Hope that is of some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted October 15, 2002 Share Posted October 15, 2002 I treat the Queens Highway like a track and have covered 6000 miles regularly using all 9500rpm since last rebuilding my engine. But then its not a K. Last person I heard brag about improved R500 relialbility was mightily dissapointed 10 minutes later when it is reported (not by me) a gudgeon pin was found on the track. Think the above may be an exaggeration, but bottom line is that if you want 230bhp out of an R500 engine you need RPM, and if you use that RPM a lot they don't last as long as other engine types. Interestingly, Peter Carmichaels monster K had completed 15,000 miles with no serious problems prior to its recent blow uo (which was caused by an ancillery belt failure). Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM website See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 I'm pretty sure that current R500 engines are giving 230bhp within the 8600 rev limit. I'm also pretty sure even very hard road use isn't quite the same as track use. However, no one's doubting that the Vx is inherently more durable than a K. Then again it should be - it weighs getting on for 50% more and has been around about twice as long. As with anything like this, if you factor "refresh" costs into the whole ownership equation nothing will come as a surprise. But if you go beyond the recommendations of the manufacturer be prepared to accept the risk that something more expensive could (not will) ensue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewD Posted October 16, 2002 Author Share Posted October 16, 2002 Hmmm. Thank you everybody for posting your comments so far. Hmmm. Clearly I can't take a rational approach to choosing cars, but then why change the habits of a lifetime. Andrew Yellow SLR T777XXX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 IMO some R500 owners and prospective new owners are not understanding what a top end refresh is. A refresh is a head off job , lap in the valves, clean and reassembly fit new valve springs, reshim the cams/followers. As this work is confined to the top end of the engine and with the exception of the new valve springs will do little to extend the life of the whole engine from a engine failure point of view, its aim is to maintain performance through maintaining compression and ensuring that valve clearances are maintained. Most R500 engine failures are failures due to problems with lubrication causing con rod failure, this can be down to incorrect assembly, worn big end or main bearings, owners not keeping their oil topped up , over revving on downshifts, working the engine hard before the oil and water are at normal operating temp etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gridgway Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 I don't think that the'top end refresh' is what's recommended by Minister/Caterham at the 3000/10000 interval. That refresh includes the bottom end as well. Graham Edited by - gridgway on 16 Oct 2002 09:31:41 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonkeyDave Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 so a 'refresh' is actually a rebuild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 I am glad you cleared that one up Graham. Could you enlighten us what the recomended maintenace schedule for the R500 is and what parts are replaced and when , I for one would be interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gridgway Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 I'll try Rob, but need to find the info first which won't be until tomorrow evening. So if anyone else has it feel free to beat me to it! Graham PS did I mention mine's for sale???? 😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ince Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 For cars that are used on track the rebuild interval is 2500 - 3000 miles. This is a full top and bottom end job. My engine that failed at Lydden had done about 3,500 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonkeyDave Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 my 'refresh'/rebuild involved new bearings, crank re ground in places, rods and pistons reused with new rings/pins/bolts etc, new long bolts, head - new valves/springs/mech tappets/set up, new oil pump/clutch and obviously the usual gaskets and sundries refresh appears to be a euphamism really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonkeyDave Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 and I think they had to replace a liner or 2 as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 Richard, Do you know what configuration of main bearings your engine was running BEFORE it failed. The reason I ask is that its possible to assemble the engine with the standard Rover main bearing configuration of 5 plain shells on the bottom and plain on the top on number 1 and 5 main with grooved shells fitted to number 2 3 & 4 main on the top. IMO and that of the crank manufacturer this is the incorrect bearing set up for the fully crossdrilled crank as this effectively blocks off the oil feeds from number 1main to 1 BE and 5 main to 4 BE. I run with all plain shells on the bottom of 1234&5 mains and all grooved on the top and the Vandervell VP2 BE shells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 I read a post from Arnie that said PC had done 15,000 miles yet the R500's seem marginal at 20% of that. Any ideas on why? PC? Greg, Q 86 NTM (Green 185BHP XF) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 The mileage on my engine was mostly road use. R500s are generally reckoned to be good for 10,000 miles between refreshes from road use. I suspect that my engine has a stronger foundation because every component was selected considering a balance of strength and performance. Given the choice of a lightweight vs.heavyweight steel crank, I went for the heavy one - independently assessed to be good for probably 800bhp. The crankshaft has direct, oblique oil drillings rather than the cross-drilled Farndon crank - the crankcase has been modified to feed oil to this crank design, which probably gives a better feed to the big ends than the setup that Rob suspects is in the R500. The big issue is that the R500 uses interference fit small ends. All *proper* engines use bushed small ends and circlipped pistons. My liners are stronger than R500 liners and the whole thing is held in place by through studs with twice the cross-sectional area of the original through bolts. The crankcase is dowelled to the crank ladder at ten points. On disassembly there was no sign of any fretting of the liners or crank ladder even though the engine had been used under power to 9700rpm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 I'm sure I was told the R500s are 3000/20000 miles. Which may be a function of the reduced rev limit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ince Posted October 16, 2002 Share Posted October 16, 2002 I am not sure of the bearing configuration. Keith Jecks and Peter Carmichael are going to have the engine to strip down in the next few days. Hopefully this will allow the failure point to be identified. No point in sending back to Minister as the whole engine is scrap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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