Fitting an oil conditioner

[Unclefester]

I decided to fit an oil conditioner on the SV.

 

Partly because the Vandervell bearings are unusually susceptible to acid buildup in the oil, and partly because it's a good idea on general principles, as it protects the engine properly by filtering the fine particles out....wear particles between 3 and 15 microns which go straight through the "oil strainer" which is the standard full-flow filter.

 

The 'oil-conditioner' filters the oil by taking about 10% of the flow through a deep filter of cellulose (or other media) and returning the analytically clean oil to the engine.

 

It also removes water, so acids, which are caused when combustion gases blow past the pistons and mix with condensate water already in the oil. can't form.

 

I fitted a small stainless steel plate in the position on the chassis where the OE carbon canister was. I drilled out the two rivets which had located the canister bracket, applied some Sikkaflex around the contact aread on both chassis tubes, riveted the plate into place and used a tie wrap in true Caterham fashion to locate the other side, though the Sikkaflex holds it anyway.

 

It fits very well! It would have fitted on the bulkhead, and I know of Blatchatters who have fitted it there on the original chassis Sevens.

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7025/6765259627_e06a084bc9_b.jpg

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7145/6765258361_0c28651097_b.jpg

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7169/6765258905_d0944cbab0_b.jpg

 

Now I need a supplier for the 6mm ID stainless braided oil pipe....any ideas?

 

edit...Demontweeks do it at £20 a metre.

 

 

 

 

Edited by - Unclefester on 26 Jan 2012 19:23:23

[millsn]

My standard post, try think auto in twickenham

[Sheds Moderator]

That looks very neat UF. So it's an ultra filter, basically, filtering out gunk that the normal filter misses? Useful. I'm not sure about the water removal though - it looks like a sealed filter case so if it is then where does the water go?

[Mort]

Originally read this as 'Fitting an Air Conditioner', which got my attention.

 

Nice Job.

[Unclefester]

Quoting batteredoldsupersport: 

That looks very neat UF. So it's an ultra filter, basically, filtering out gunk that the normal filter misses? Useful. I'm not sure about the water removal though - it looks like a sealed filter case so if it is then where does the water go?

 

Boss...it's sealed, but the idea is you open it to change the core material from time to time, more so if conditions of use are likely to be producing much condensation...constant short trips where the oil doesn't reach normal operating temperatures for instance.

 

Some designs do have a separate chamber with a coil, and an opening to atmosphere, which allows for water vapour to be driven off by heating the oil over its normal operating temperature, but most don't, they simply rely on absorbtion/adsorbtion to remove particles and water.

 

The water is supposedly absorbed into the individual fibres of the matrix., while the particles adhere to the outside of the fibres.

 

 

 

Edited by - Unclefester on 27 Jan 2012 12:30:54

[Mr Locust]

What is the pressure drop across the new filter compared to the element you are replacing;

 

1. at the oil flow rate delivered by the oil pump in your engine?

2. at the likely contamination levels you expect to see in your filter at the end of your service interval?

 

If the oil pump has a built in pressure relief valve fitted, any significant additional pressure drop in the filter arrangement will tend to increase relief flow and reduce flow to the engine oil galleries i.e. increase the risk of starving the oil feed to the bearings.

[Unclefester]

Quoting Mr Locust: 

What is the pressure drop across the new filter compared to the element you are replacing;

 

1. at the oil flow rate delivered by the oil pump in your engine?

2. at the likely contamination levels you expect to see in your filter at the end of your service interval?

 

If the oil pump has a built in pressure relief valve fitted, any significant additional pressure drop in the filter arrangement will tend to increase relief flow and reduce flow to the engine oil galleries i.e. increase the risk of starving the oil feed to the bearings.

 

It's not replacing the original full-flow filter or 'strainer' at all.

 

Think of this as the second half of a complete oil cleaning system.

 

What the OE full-flow filter does is prevent shrapnel in the oil after a breakage or from any other source from circulating and wrecking the motor. It also removes a % of particles above about 30 microns. Anything less will go straight through, and starts to accumulate in the oil immediately after it's changed...hence the need for frequent changes.

 

The depth filter (oil conditioner, call it what you will) does the other half of the job, by fine-filtering the oil progressively, and returning it to the system so free of particles that it's often cleaner than when it was put in.

 

I've seen the figures for these units applied to industrial hydraulic oil, and it cleans to several levels cleaner than the rating for than new oil.

 

There is minimal oil pressure drop in the main system, it wasn't noticeable at all on the other cars I've fitted here, such as my Elise..

 

Edited by - Unclefester on 27 Jan 2012 16:04:09

[Sheds Moderator]

If it's a closed system then its ability to absorb water of combustion will be minimal. Think about it - light a gas ring in the kitchen for 5 minutes, don't put a pan on it, then look at the windows. They wil be steamed up, just as if you'd had a shower running. The same happens in an engine, most of the water blows out of the exhaust, some blows by the rings and ends up in the oil. The filter can absorb how much water? A cupful? After that you'll set up an equilibrium with "new" water coming in and "old" water being swept out with the cleaned oil.

 

I think the benefit of this system is the ability to filter out very small particles of carbon and metal, at which I'm sure it's very good.

[Unclefester]

I quite agree the water absorption capacity must be limited, but then again, we don't know how much water actually gets into the oil, so it's very hard to guess how efficient the things are at keeping an engine condensate free, or rather for how long..

 

I've seen various figures but I don't think university engineering departments are lining-up to test this and I doubt the big oil companies will be offering funds to sponsor such work.

 

I don't think it'd be something you could easily test at home, either.

 

Imagine the mess all over the kitchen table.....

 

A surprising amount of micron sized silica gets past air filters and into the oil too......and water which is in the oil is driven off when the engine is at a good operating temperature for a while, with the oil at around 100°C or more. In conditions where the engine is likely to be building up water in the oil, you change the core more frequently.

This would apply to engines which rarely get to normal operating temperature in cars which do a lot of short commutes for example.

 

Oil analysis would tell you what level of water or acids are there easily enough.

 

Edited by - Unclefester on 27 Jan 2012 18:47:00

[Mr Locust]

So it bleeds oil from the engine oil pressure feed rail?

 

What is your revised engine oil service interval?

[Chewie]

Can't really see the point. If oil conditioners are so good, why isn't every road car fitted with these? Considering 99.9% Caterhams are a fair weather/second/weekend/boys toy car with little mileage, the amount of engine wear is going to be a gnat's c*ck.

[Sheds Moderator]

It's one of the great unanswerable questions. How do manufacturers decide oil change frequencies anyway? Many cases exist of 2 manufacturers using the same engine, one says 6k, the other 10. These days it would be 12 and 20. There was a case of (I think Audi) a few years back having to revise its change frequencies because at 20k they were getting a few cars expiring at 80k and needing warranty repair work.

 

The manufacturers (at least in the UK) work on a 100k mile engine life,a bit more for diesels, after that they don't much care. It may be more in Europe (the French run cars for ever) and I know in the USA they favour short oil changes but accept that most older cars will need an engine rebuild/exchange about 250k. When did you last hear of anyone fitting a recon engine in a UK car?

 

With this in mind the difference between a car that lasts 250k miles and 300k miles is neither here nor there, unless you drive a taxi, and if there is a <5% fail rate between 100k and 150k most people aren't going to know either. So you reduce the change frequency and accept a bit more crud in the oil. The thing is that nobody has the means of testing these things under controlled conditions, and the ones who do (the manufacturers) aren't letting on the results of the engine stripdowns after 1000, 2000, 5000 hours and the decision making process.

 

I think superfilters, like 3000 mile oil changes, may help engine life. They will certainly make you feel better. Will they stave off an engine rebuild? On a sample size of one, you can't really know.

[Unclefester]

Mr Locust, That's right, you take the feed either via a sandwich plate under the OE filter, or via a T piece, often in the oil-pressure idiot light hole. The oil return can be direct to sump, above the oil level, or into the cam cover or via a swivel fitting, into the filler cap. The filters (the fact that you now have a complete filtration system) means that you can, if you want, extend full oil changes almost indefinitely, as a lot of haulage operators do, using either these filters or centrifugal ones, or in some cases, BOTH!

 

I've seen these fitted as original on some Scania lorries, they are also fitted on Cummins equipment as OE and on Hummers, apparently, as well as a lot of American military vehicles and Federal fleet vehicles. They are widely used on big marine engines, have been licensed for light aircraft engines in the USA, and in fact were for many years the sole oil filtration system on many old cars, before full-flow systems became the norm, when for some reason they fell out of favour, probably because the full flow system was sold as "filtering all the oil, all the time"

 

One reason they aren't fitted as standard on everything is, I feel, something to do with the relationship between the oil companies and the motor manufacturers.....because if you want to opt for the hugely spaced out oil changes which these things allow, obviously their market takes a substantial hit.

 

For the likes of us, it's probably more interesting from the POV of offering the best possible engine protection, and peace of mind if you are worried about the build-up of crud towards the normal oil change mileage.

 

If you DO take advantage of the reduced need to change the oil, the thing pays for itself quite quickly.....

 

Worth repeating that an OE filter, a full-flow filter, is really more of an oil strainer. It allows all the particles which are of the size which causes wear on bearings and bores to pass straight through, so they start to build up in the oil immediately you start the engine after an oil-change.

 

These are particles from 1 to 15 microns. There are no OE full-flow filters available which remove these particles.

 

Bearing gap in extremis with a 0w20 oil can get down to 0.6 of a micron.....so crud is being dragged through the bearing all the time. Most gap here would be nearer to 3 microns normally, so 3 to 15 micron muck particles will be trying to squash through and creating more wear particles in the process.

 

In industrial applications, with hydraulic machinery, these filters are used widely, to keep the oil cleaner, in many cases, than it was when it was poured in, new. Quite important in terms of avoiding machine down time and expensive refits.

 

 

 

 

Edited by - Unclefester on 28 Jan 2012 13:34:57

[Mr Locust]

Here is an idea to consider.

 

If the filter is capable of filtering particles to 1µ is the filtration media is likely to be highly susceptible to becoming blinded by contamination. In which case the back pressure will increase and the flow will reduce. In the extreme the filter becomes blocked and there is no flow through the additional filter. Only through the standard filter.

 

How does your system ensure that there is flow through the filter and what provision is there for blocked filter indication?

[Sheds Moderator]

It doesn't, and there is no indication. As time goes on less oil will go through the filter panel. However if/when it does block you are no worse off than you would be without the filter. It's in addition to the full-flow filter.

 

You are back to change intervals, this time for filters not oil. How long is reasonable? Nobody knows, or those who do won't say.

[Chewie]

If you're that worried by engine wear, what size air filter are you using to prevent road dust and grit jamming up your pistons? And have you seen the size of the metal chunks in your gearbox and diff oil recently? 80-90% of engine wear is caused by metal-metal contact at start-up. A 1 micron filter will not prevent that. Your engine will wear out each time you press START. Also this product is aimed at extending oil change intervals. However over time and temperature cycles, the molecular chain of engine oil will breakdown, it will lose it's lubricity. Black tar like substance will form and collect in places where your filter has no effect. Only by regular oil changes can you prevent this tar build up.

[Unclefester]

Quoting batteredoldsupersport: 

It doesn't, and there is no indication. As time goes on less oil will go through the filter panel. However if/when it does block you are no worse off than you would be without the filter. It's in addition to the full-flow filter.

 

You are back to change intervals, this time for filters not oil. How long is reasonable? Nobody knows, or those who do won't say.

 

BOSS all you have to do to answer your question about filter change intervals is check on a manufacturers site.

 

Amsoil sell them, Gulf Coast, Kleenoil, Frantz filters, and many others, the information isn't being hidden.

 

As for how do you check that the filter is still working, you just put your hand on it when the engine is running and if it's hot, it's working.

 

I've used them for years on numerous different installations and I've not had one block yet.

 

For these small cellulose filters, I tend to change them every 5000 miles, but Kleenoil used to recommend every 10,000 for the same size so maybe I'm over cautious.

 

Kleenoil filters are very commonly used by Landrover owners, since a journalist who owned a Landy and was in some sort of Landrover club did an article on his own fitment of one.....there has been a continuing demand ever since.

 

Edited by - Unclefester on 29 Jan 2012 11:13:12

[Unclefester]

Quoting batteredoldsupersport: 

It doesn't, and there is no indication. As time goes on less oil will go through the filter panel. However if/when it does block you are no worse off than you would be without the filter. It's in addition to the full-flow filter.

 

You are back to change intervals, this time for filters not oil. How long is reasonable? Nobody knows, or those who do won't say.

 

 

It's not a panel. It's the entire contents of the container, which is a 5" deep roll of tightly wound special high absorbence cellulose paper. The oil goes through a restrictor orifice (to limit the pressure,) up the centre tube, and is forced down through the full length of the filter material, then through a fine mesh screen and back to the engine.

 

Depth filtration...a screen of filter material can never get anywhere near this level of efficiency., hence it's the second part of a proper oil cleaning system.

[Unclefester]

Quoting Chewie: 

If you're that worried by engine wear, what size air filter are you using to prevent road dust and grit jamming up your pistons? And have you seen the size of the metal chunks in your gearbox and diff oil recently? 80-90% of engine wear is caused by metal-metal contact at start-up. A 1 micron filter will not prevent that. Your engine will wear out each time you press START. Also this product is aimed at extending oil change intervals. However over time and temperature cycles, the molecular chain of engine oil will breakdown, it will lose it's lubricity. Black tar like substance will form and collect in places where your filter has no effect. Only by regular oil changes can you prevent this tar build up.

 

Chewie.....I sell oil, I know quite a lot about how it works.

 

You are talking about the long chain molecules of plastic known as VE viscosity enhancers, which are used in the old-fashioned mineral oils and which do indeed shear down and alter the viscosity.

 

This is negligible with 100% synthetics such as Amsoil as they don't work in the same way.

 

A mineral oil, say a 20w 50 multigrade, is based on a 20w oil. The VE additive works by unfurling from its rolled up shape to ribbon shape as the oil heats, so that at normal operating temp it's equivalent to a 50w oil at the same temperature. Unfortunately they do soon shear down so that the hot rating might be 30w or less after six months use in some cases.

 

Synthetics don't work in the same way, and have negligible amounts of VE if any. Semi-synthetics are really just modified, marginally improved mineral oil sold at a higher price.

 

In either case their is still a great deal of benefit from using fine filtration/oil conditioning, as any research will show you. It's absurd to say the only way to keep oil clean is to flush it regularly, you are quite mistaken. You say "black tar like substance will build up in places where the filter has no effect.... HOW, if the filter is constantly removing all the particulates from all the oil?

 

If you had ever had the experience of stripping a high mileage motor which has run one of these filters for a long time, you would never have said that...they are spotlessly clean, and have almost zero wear.

 

Large haulage trucks in the USA have done 500,000 miles without one single oilchange using these systems. The only new oil entering the system is the small amount of top-up when the filter core is changed, which seems to keep the additive package ok, verified by anuual oil analysis.

 

This is very common in the USA, and as I said earlier, military and Federal fleets use them too....

 

Edited by - Unclefester on 28 Jan 2012 23:27:05

 

Edited by - Unclefester on 29 Jan 2012 11:21:04

[Mr Locust]

As for how do you check that the filter is still working, you just put your hand on it when the engine is running and if it's hot, it's working.

 

I've used them for years on numerous different installations and I've not had one block yet.

 

Does that mean that your engines weren't quite so 'dirty' as you originally feared?

 

If you change the filtration media every 5000 miles what interval do you change the oil at?

[Unclefester]

I'd say it means that at the mileage it had done when I found it was still working, it was still doing its job efficiently..

 

I'd also say that this concept appeals to people who want to keep wear particles out of their oil systems, have no 'tar-like' deposits due to particles dropping out of suspension in the oil, and prefer to remove the small amounts of acids in the oil which form if you allow water to accumulate in it.

 

Anyone who thinks its better to run their engines with dirty oil and throw the oil away every few thousand miles will never think differently and should continue to do so.

 

You know it makes sense....

 

I have been changing the oil at about 25,000 miles, though I am intending to start using oil analysis to see how it responds to being extended indefinitely..

 

If an HGV can do 500,000 miles without a single oilchange and have almost unmeasurable wear on stripdown, (using this system) I think that's a fair indication that oil changes every few thousand miles are a waste of money and material.

 

 

Edited by - Unclefester on 29 Jan 2012 18:55:29

[Mr Locust]

I am intending to start using oil analysis

 

Viscosity, wear metals? What parameter(s) will you base the judgement the safety of your extended interval on?

[Unclefester]

What would you think?

 

Any significant presence of wear metals should be an indication of the start of a problem. Most of the labs can give a good indication of how the oil is holding up in terms of viscosity, additives levels, particulates, TBN.... there's a whole spectrum of factors to consider.

 

Check http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

 

Normally you would submit a sample of the oil unused to establish a baseline so you can see exactly what's going on, and the labs themselves will indicate if in their opinion the oil is no longer usable , as a failsafe.

 

 

Edited by - Unclefester on 29 Jan 2012 12:43:20

[Mr Locust]

What would you think?

 

You have done your research, you have made your decision to install the additional system. You are conducting your own experiment with a sample size of one. Let us know how the engine (and the car) looks with 500,000 miles recorded.

 

It would also be interesting to see how significant the effects of oil surge and oil aeration are in the Caterham application. Also of interest would be whether any signs of fuel dilution start to show in the oil analysis due to rich mapping of an aftermarket fuel injection system.

 

All really dependent on the specification of your car and the duty cycle you subject it to. And your of course, your own driving style. Your mileage will most definitely vary!

[Unclefester]

Fuel dilution is one of the things to look out for for sure.