Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted January 16, 2012 Area Representative Share Posted January 16, 2012 K series VHPD Emerald ECU (Dave Walker mapping) new battery (September) battery isolator (simple installation cutting the earth). car is stored in garage rented from the council about 15 minutes walk away without power. If the car is left for ten days (roughly) or more, it won't fire up. If I use it weekly, it starts well. With jump leads, it starts straight away. Twice this winter it has failed to start (including yesterday at 07:00 ) Once started runs well. Option one is to start the Crossflow, which lives in the garage at the house, drive over to the other garage, jump the 21, swap over the cars. Practical, but takes longer and doesn't really address the problem. Option two:- bigger battery? and are there options three and four? The Crossflow will start (and did yesterday morning). It has the advantage that it lives in the integrated garage, which will be warmer and it can sit on an Optimate if neccesary (which isn't the case really). Your views will be read with interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Nick Chan Posted January 16, 2012 Area Representative Share Posted January 16, 2012 Obviously the battery on the 21 requires a small boost to get it going so how about investing in one of those jump start packs. They seem to be far more convenient than jump starting off another car. Can these be used through the cigarette lighter socket meaning the bonnet doesn't have to be lifted I wonder? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noet Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You could buy a portable "start booster". Very handy , - just keep it charged at home and bring it along if you suspect low battery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 so the battery is draining when left for 10 days or more . I would have thought that disconnecting the battery is the solution to avoid the drain in the first place ?> how about a dis-car-nect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted January 16, 2012 Author Area Representative Share Posted January 16, 2012 Thanks, I understand, but isn't this skirting the problem? I appreciate that an external solution provides flexibility (starting either car if neccesary) and that is a big point it it's favour. I should add that the starter motor turns over well but the engine won't fire. I can not hear a diiference between the starter motor turning over just on the car battery and with extra power from the Seven. Nick's point about not lifting the bonnet is fairly important. It's not that it is difficult, but it is a nuisance and certainly slows the operation down. On checking my diary, it is not even a week since the car was used. I drove down to SW London on Tuesday night and returned the car to the cgarage at 05:00 on Wednesday morning. It started OK then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted January 16, 2012 Author Area Representative Share Posted January 16, 2012 Dave The battery is disconnected - there is a battery master switch across the earth, specifically to address that issue. In the past (with previous engine and MEMS unit, it didn't matter what time of the year it was the battery could not be left for a fortnight without considerable discharge, now it appears to be a temperature related issue - as much as anything) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted January 23, 2012 Author Area Representative Share Posted January 23, 2012 Update. This afternoon I started the car and it went without trouble, as I expected. I know that the battery will perform better as the temperature is 6 or 7 degrees warmer than first thing that Sunday morning. Would it just be that or can the map for cold starting be tweeked to make allowances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CageyH Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 You can tweak the cold start section of the map. Mine now starts on the button when it is hot or cold. Drop me a blatmail, and I will send a copy of my MAP over for you to have a look. Mine is a VHPD on Jenveys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted January 23, 2012 Author Area Representative Share Posted January 23, 2012 Kevin YHBM. I suppose it could be the temp sensor... (we know how bad the sensors on K series can be) but I always thought it was the ECU/map not being right. After all, the cold map is bound to be an estimate at the rolling road as the session is done when warm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CageyH Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 YHM. Although not cold (around 8 degrees), my Caterham started on the button when I tried earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted January 23, 2012 Author Area Representative Share Posted January 23, 2012 Thanks. It's much the same temperature here (or it was certainly about that this afternoon) and starting isn't a problem. Once it gets to near freezing, then it is a problem. My guess is that the temperature when it just would not fire is that it was under 0oC overnight and at 07:00 might have been about zero or a little over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 If you know you have a battery issue (evidenced by the "put jump leads n and it starts") why not trace where the power is going when the bms is disconnected - sounds like there is still a load on it. On my car, it car sit for months with no trickle charger etc, but disconnected by bms and will start on the button when I need it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted January 23, 2012 Author Area Representative Share Posted January 23, 2012 Point taken Martin. The battery master switch is across the earth strap from battery to chassis (so not a proper installation and not suitable for killing the engine - this is not a track car) so there is nothing connected. I will get a clamp meter out and check (but not tonight). In December when I jump-started the car, it had been left for maybe 10 weeks . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted January 24, 2012 Author Area Representative Share Posted January 24, 2012 Martin Thinking about it further, surely the voltage available from a running car will be greater than that from a very cold battery. Thus the car will start. Maybe the same would be true if there was a bigger battery in the car (but that is a pain because the tray, strap and the space available are right for the standard Banner. I am interested in the drop off of battery performance as the ambient air temperature drops to zero. If the map can allow for this drop then do we have a solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 I don't understand why you would want to mess with the map to make cold starting easier when the battery voltage is low. Have you checked voltage etc when cranking to ensure the battery is not dead or or starting to die? Then again I may have completely misunderstood what youre saying and trying to achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted January 24, 2012 Author Area Representative Share Posted January 24, 2012 Martin You know far more about these things in general than I do. The battery is new (October); started the car yesterday, started it today, starts it quite happily whenever the temperature is a couple of degrees about 0oC. Tell me, what is the disadvantage of tweeking the cold-starting on the map? (because I have no idea) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CageyH Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Just a thought, but have you checked the condition of the solenoid lead, and condition of the battery connectors and earths? If these are not in good condition, the car will be difficult to start in cold weather as the battery does not produce as much power. It is a quick check to perform, and may solve the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjmmarsh Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It could be the starter motor itself. I had a car with a lazy turnover that occasionally needed to be rocked in gear before the starter would turn the car over. It turned out to be one of the brushes on the rotor was failing, so not putting full power into the starter. When I put a new one in (whole starter) I was amazed at how freely it span the engine. All the battery problems I thought I had disappeared! Steve Edited by - sjmmarsh on 25 Jan 2012 06:53:34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millsn Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Have you checked the condition of your earth leads? Pal once had issues with his where the leads earthing the engine had corroded away. It isn't immediately obvious. On his the corrosion was immediately behind the startingpoint of the earth leads' insulation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted January 25, 2012 Author Area Representative Share Posted January 25, 2012 Thanks for your various thoughts. Kevin, thanks for the map, which I have yet to look at. Firstly, I am interested in why there might be a disadvantage to tweeking the map. Starting from cold can not be done at the rolling road because the engine is, of course warm. You can only check the cold starting when it is cold enough and first thing in the morning (because the car will start in the afternoon). Regarding the connections, they shouldn't be degraded as the rebuild was only completed in September (same time we put that new battery went in). Likewise the cable itself. However I will check. SJMMarsh - starter sounds healthy there is plenty of turnover, just no firing. This starter is about 25 months old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CageyH Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Plenty of turnover and no firing sounds to me like you need to play with your map, preferably with the PC connected and the live adjustments screen showing so you can see what is going on. Send me a copy of your map, just so I can do a comparison. I may be able to see what changes I made. I may even have a mail somewhere with the details in. Tweaking the cold running part of the map will not hurt the rolling roaded map in anyway. Just remember to save the map you have now, so you can revert back to it at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CageyH Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 GJT, found the mail, and my original query/problem here Hope the last mail helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Option three: put the crossflow in the remote garage, and bring the 21 to the home garage where you can put it on charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Golf Juliet Tango Posted January 26, 2012 Author Area Representative Share Posted January 26, 2012 Mort Before I filled the garage with crap stuff (spare wheels, the summer tyres, a ladder, filing cabinet, bookcase, shredder and more ) I could, just, fit the 21 in. It was tight against the wall on the px side and I always pushed it the last foot as there was no more than about three inches to spare on length. So swapping them around would be very difficult to achieve. Anyway, that would only avoid the issue, which does need to be addressed at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bio Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Very strange that the car spins over fast on the starter but will not fire up. Sounds like it needs good voltage to the ECU. Will a bigger battery fit or two Gel batteries wired together. Soon be Spring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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