Honda S2000 engine

[murph7355]

Were these BECs dry sumped? And in what sort of installations?

 

I'm not a fan of the BEC config for a road and track car but for track only use a well designed BEC has a lot going for it.

 

As for the comparison of the S2000 with the R500, have you done back to backs?

 

Yes an R500 has noticeably more urge over 5.5k-6k revs than it does lower down, but this does not necessarily mean it's left wanting lower down. It's also why the 6spd box is a good idea.

 

If the S2000 lump is genuinely 30kgs porkier than a VX, it's giving away a whole load more to a K, and ludicrous amounts to a BEC. In fact if it is that much heavier than a VX, why not just use a VX? Proven reliability, high power outputs "commonplace", cheap (relatively) etc.

 

Out of interest, what's the going rate for an S2000 engine? And what are Honda's requirements servicing wise? I heard some rumours about them needing quite a bit of oil??

 

Potentially contentious point, but isn't power delivery less of an issue on track? You'll always be using the gearbox to keep you fully in the zone anyway, so as long as the gearbox and engine are well matched it should be fine.

 

 

 

 

[Red SLR]

Andy - mouth washed out with EP90.

 

 

 

See X777CAT here

 

[julians]

I dont think the S2k is 30kgs heavier than a VX, I think its just a bit heavier, I think the 30kgs figure came from Simon comparing it to a K.

[Red SLR]

Thats right, have I just drank 2L of EP90 for no reason?

 

See X777CAT here

 

[julians]

S2k engine - 147Kgs

2.0 VX XE - 140kGS

1.8 K series - 102Kgs

2.0 Zetec - 127kgs

 

Figures from the web , so dont know how accurate they are.

 

[christophe]

Actually I could get the S2000 for a few quids. It is coming from a friend which work for Renault R&D centre.

They bought two complete S2000 and have dismantled them to check how they are build. Engines and boxs have been left untouched and are in a warehouse for ever.

 

Will Renault ever launch a new 4L with a 2liters 240 BHP?

 

The advantages I see on a S2000 VS other solutions like Vauxhall or motorbikes is reliability. 240 BHP from the box would likely mean they will run for ever without rebuild

[aph]

julians where did you get the engine weights? what sort of weight is the 1.8 integra engine

[julians]

engine weights and other things are on

 

www.fluke-motorsport.co.uk in the technical section under weights database.

 

Dont know if they have the integra in there though.

[aph]

thanks julians can't seem to find any weights for the integra engines anywhere. I was just wondering if they are a different block design etc and if they are more on a par weight wise with a K

[Dirty Den]

Aph -

 

IIRC, I think I've got a website bookmarked at work that details a conversion for the Elise, to the Integra engine. I'll look it up when I'm back at work and post the URL here.

 

Den

 

😬 - Self portrait - still unable to remove the smile!

[RESOLVIWOLF]

k series = bang x lots

bec = bang x lots x 10

 

 

 

not good or proper or wise for trackday cars ... SEOT.

[JuanSolo]

I've also seen a lot of BEC's go pop at trackdays. Some dry-sumped, some not. Mostly Blackbirds though, don't think I've ever seen a Busa pop...

 

As for the K, similar story but less so. Seems to be very reliable when mounted transversely in an Elise but mounting them longditudinally in a Caterfield seems to impact the reliability of them dramatically.

 

Never seen a Zetec pop. Dispite the stick they seem to get from both sides of the Caterfield fence, I still think these are a cracking little engine for very little cash.

 

The S2000 is difficult to give any measured opinions of given that there are only a couple of them out there. But certainly in the case of Rich B & Andy T's Nutter, it has been ragged to within an inch of it's life both here and in the heat of several European trackdays and hasn't missed a beat. I suspect this is because it is an overengineered, unfettled engine that was designed to work in the orientation it is in. The fact that it give 240bhp out of the box is phenomenal. It's also cheap and comes with a cracking 6 speed box. To over look it as a transplant option is daft.

 

It's just a shame that so few Caterham owners veer from the 'standard' spec as the K is far from the greatest engine ever built. Sure it's light but it's also fragile and rediculously expensive to tune.

 

I'm watching with interest how Raceline and Dunnell get on with the Duratec. It has so much potential as the next big Caterfield powerplant. We just need more reps to stuff their Mundano's to bring the cost of them down.

 

Anyhow I'm rambling now... *click*

[moomin]

>I've also seen a lot of BEC's go pop at trackdays. Some dry-sumped, some not.

>Mostly Blackbirds though, don't think I've ever seen a Busa pop...

 

Juan, I only know of one dry-sumped Bird which has popped, and that was explicable. If you know of any others then I'd be interested to hear more about what/why it went.

 

>not good or proper or wise for trackday cars

 

Rich?!? I am bad, improper, and unwise! 😬

 

And it sounds like you could have two blade engines for the weight of one S2k! Then if you pop one, you can still get home.

 

Moomin

 

www.megabird.co.uk

[Robster]

I seem to remember on a previous thread that the S2000 engine ran ANTICLOCKWISE! If this is the case, how have people got around this? I am assuming that the output from the Honda gearbox is also anticlockise going forward.

[rgrigsby]

I've only seen Blade engines go pop never a bird or Busa engine, although I have seen other problems on Busa engined cars such as some wierd refusing to start for a while issues.

 

the S2000 engine sounds like a good choice if you can fit it and the gearbox in the car.....

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[julians]

S2000 and civic type R engines both run the correct way , previous VTEC incarnations ran the wrong way though.

[DanB]

Robster,

 

The S2000 engine runs the usual way round - it's the other Honda engines (usually FWD) that rotate the wrong way round. So no problems there.

 

Dan

[JuanSolo]

S2000 and CTR engines spin the correct way. Earlier Honda lumps, ITR and the like, go the wrong way. Not an issue if you want to transplant it into say, an Elise. But a definate issue if you want to put the engine in the front and mate it to a Type-9 box or whatever. That's not to say it can't be done. There is a sprint Westie out there with a 300bhp 2.2 Honda lump that was built to spin the right way by Plays-Kool Motorsport. Ludicrously expensive to do though.

 

The dry-sumped Bird I saw go pop was a 100 mile old MegaBird. Did look like an assembly fault with the engine though as it blew a piston retaining pin (don't know the technical term) though the side of the block. Happened on a straight also so it shouldn't have been down to oil surge. There is a video of it going pop in one of the BaT galleries. Goes very 'F1 stylie'. The same day another 'bird died but this time a Sylva. I think that one was down to surge though.

[edmandsd]

Add an 87kg fully dressed BDX engine to your list Julian

 

Power per kilo(of engine weight only) would also be an interesting measure....mines around 3.4 bhp per kilo on that basis, whereas the S2000 engine's closer to 1.6 bhp per kilo - Over 50% less.

 

Even got the edge on a 66kg Blade engine/g'box. A with gear box comparison is 2.7 for the BD and box v 2.0 for the Fireblade @ 130 bhp and 1.3 for the Honda.

 

This bloke's got a pretty impressive Honda engine though here ❗

 

Home of BDR700

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by - edmandsd on 9 Oct 2002 14:41:19

[moomin]

RobG,

If you refer to Phil Paines, then that was another achilles heel of the bike engine - stripped starter motor caused by failing to dip the clutch when spinning on track (the starter has a slipper clutch but when you start driving everything backwards things go very wrong!).

 

Juan,

The key point there was that engine was 100 miles old - they tend not to like being revved to 12k rpm at that age! No offence to the owner, but if you are crazy enough to rev a brand new engine out to the limiter... The other bird which died on that day was not dry sump as far as I am aware.

 

Dave,

Your engine sounds increasingly impressive! 😬 Is the cost ?

 

Moomin.

 

www.megabird.co.uk

[rgrigsby]

That's the one... prior to striping the starter motor it had died on the track earlier on and got towed back to the pits only to restart fine once there!! all very strange....

 

Having said that it's done 2 tours across Europe and numerous track days with only realitively minor problems, it's also a stunning car to drive having had a go in it at Kemora earlier this year 😬

 

Cheers

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[murph7355]

Keep rinsing Simon.

 

It's still 5% heavier than a Vx, which is not only going the wrong way, but will also be making Arnie change his moniker to Slim Arnie.

 

And Vx's are, I beleive, reliable at the 240bhp mark.

 

As for outright potential of the VTEC who knows? Has anyone tried? Does anyone make readily accessible parts in this country? Are they readily available anywhere (I assume Mugen do them but have never tried talking about cam profiles and valve sizes in Japanese)? Valves, cams, ECU programming?

 

It's as unfair to slate BECs for unreliability as it is to label Ks or, no doubt, early Vx attempts without looking at why they failed.

 

100 mile old engine being thrashed on a track? As Moomin says that's a bit insane, and see what your VTEC'd do with so few miles on it (or you K, Duratec, Vx or whatever). Starting (electrical no doubt) problems have afflicted umpteen 7s in the past and will always do so.

 

Loiseau - I'd still guess that the BEC route would be cheaper and that the car would be quicker than the VTEC car if the engine was chosen wisely. A well driven fireblade car did very well when run against all manner of higher poke machinery on Le Sept. And that's a std. engined car. With more power, who knows. Its owner smiles every time he takes it on track, partly because he doesn't give too much of a monkey's if the engine dies as replacements are relatively cheap.

 

Track only mind. If there's any inkling of road use I'd suggest K or Duratec I think the latter are within 5kg's of a K. 250-300bhp potential and have parts available for tuning over here. Only bugger is the exhaust exits the driver's side. But for a French bloke this would be a bonus (as it's the passenger side over there).

 

 

[JuanSolo]

FWIW, he wasn't thrashing it around the track at all. He was not going anywhere near 12k rpm. The failure looked like an engine assembly fault as a gudgeon pin (remembered the correct term) should not shoot itself out of an engine really. Nothing to do with revs and nothing to do with oil (dry sumped, on a straight). It was as if it was missing a retaining clip. Besides that is just one example of the many that have failed.

 

As for the query regarding availability of tuning parts and people to set them up; there are plenty of people who will tune Hondas. Parts are not just available from Japan but the US also has a big scene in tuning Japanese machinery. I don't think you'd have any trouble in sourcing bits from it and finding someone to set it all up for you.

 

But why would you want to? To keep a trackday car as reliable as possible surely it's better to leave it standard and not stress it further by turning up the wick? Is 480bhp/ton really not enough? If you want to go faster you'd be better buying a slicks and wings Formula Vauxhall-Lotus or Formula Renault which will get you around a track far quicker than any Caterfield.

 

As for the weight of the S2000, it's only 7kg's more than an XE. The point is, it does what it does out of the box to save 7kg's would it really be worth the additional expense of tuning up an XE to that level? I suppose you could buy an Minister R500 powerplant and save 45kg's a snip at an additional £10,000 + £2500 per rebuild...

 

To put that into perspective you could have an FVL and a trailer for just over half the price of an R500 engine and spend the change on a nice Classic for road/airfield use.

 

Edited by - juansolo on 9 Oct 2002 20:18:07

[edmandsd]

Moomin - Yep ❗

[moomin]

JuanSolo,

 

The engine had just over 100 miles on it, and had been revved hard during those miles, and not run in anything like properly (Honda recommended run-in procedure is 4krpm for 500miles, then 6krpm for 500miles, then 8krpm for 500miles, with gradual increases, using all the gears, and heat-cycling) - i.e. not at all. Perhaps it had a manufacturing fault also, I agree thought it sounded like an odd failure, but the engine has been looked at by Honda/Mistral/TTS whose expert conclusion was that not running in was the problem.

I for one, won't be running my engine in on track - and since my engine is probably from exactly the same batch as the one that failed, hope and pray that it lasts a bit longer.

As I said, it is the only one I know of which has failed which was fitted with a dry sump - I would genuinely be interested to hear the reason for failure of any others.

 

 

Moom.

 

www.megabird.co.uk