Jason Plato Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 power is a red herring, I did 56 round curbuggar with 230bhp and did 57 round curbuggar with 130bhp in the same car .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted September 26, 2011 Area Representative Share Posted September 26, 2011 As DaveJ and DSL say, a few bhp make less difference than actually driving the car. There have been several events this year where the quickest drivers in class 3, 4, & 5 have all ended up very close.... I think its way to easy to get wrapped up in worrying about a few BHP, which tyres, wide track, spring rates, damper settings, big brakes, anti roll bars, etc. etc.... Much more speed will come from your own preparation. Learning the courses, and how to use what you have most effectively, is worth much more than a few bhp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BYKer Will Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Not bleating about missing 30 hp. I'm not planning my f1 career on the back of a hillclimb or two but think a 30 hp spread is ok and merely commenting as others have said that a 200hp r400 is going to struggle against 256 hp assuming everything else equal unless Darren is at the wheel. I realise even in Darrens Busa I probably wouldn't trouble the class 1 times but at least I would know it was me that was crap and not the car. Also can't all drivers carry ballast up to 16 stone to make it fairer for me 😬 Merely saying as martin said if you are going to the bother of rejiging due to the percieved 1 or 2 second benefit of busas and seqentials then why not try and make it as attractive as possible to a bigger audience and more in line with standard caterham offerings. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin b Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 Whilst I agree with the fact that the driver plays a very important part 😬 The regs at present place cars according to power, there is a small incremental increase in bhp between classes, to add another class with a bhp limit is fine if that is what you wish but that bhp limit should help split the field to not only aid competition but more importantly to show perceived equality and competitiveness to potential new competitors. To have a 60-75bhp increase between class 4 & 5 seems far too much when relatively small gains in bhp are so difficult to achieve at this state of engine tune. Can you not run a handicap system to help achieve the close competition you wish in the present Class 5 🤔 Set a defined penalty for various "extras" over say a standard H gate box and 220bhp....just a thought Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydragon Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 DSL - I'm pretty sure several of the class 4 cars were going over the line at Curbs at 100mph+ this year, As highlighted above several times, frustratingly it does appear that very fast times are possible even with a lower powered car...if you really know how to drive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Lets look at a few facts about drivers and BHP In 2009 and 2010 I run a 210bhp k series so only 20 bhp more than class 4 190 bhp. In 2009 no class 4 car beat me at any events and in 2010 when I had a very poor year I was beat three times(IIRC). If we look at 2011 I am (class 3)50 bhp down on class 4 and have been slower at all dry events to class 4. BHP must have something to do with the results David Edited by - David Nelson on 27 Sep 2011 06:56:54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal mickey Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Simon, thanks for the link. What exactly is percieved to be wrong with the exisitng classes? I think you are in danger of becoming too prescriptive and as DSL has already said run the risk of only a few cars in each of the higher classes. My car for example would be in the new class 6. I honestly don't know what bhp it produces but suspect it to be around 200bhp. On track I would say it is R400/500 equivalent. Yet in the new classes I 'could' be competing against 250BHP+ cars. Seems to me the Busa is made out to be the villain of the piece so rules are drawn to mitigate its success but it does after all follow the ethos of less is more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted September 27, 2011 Support Team Share Posted September 27, 2011 On the face of it there is a large power range for class 5 (190 to 250+) compared with class 4 (160 to 190) and class 2/3(125 to 160). I have always argued that perception is important and I can see that the perception is if you have 210bhp you won't be competitive in class 5. We do however have to balance this against the fragmentation of classes. The Hayabusas and sequential boxed cars are much quicker despite having a power deficit compared to big Ks and Duratecs which is why they are being moved to a new class. In the existing class 5 though, the power advantage get's less, the higher up the scale you go and in fact can count against you (especially in the wet). A well set up and well driven R400 would easily hold it's own against a 250bhp K - look at this year's class 4 times versus class 5 at a number of events for proof that power isn't everything. 😬 The problem now is the huge variety of Caterham's out there such that we can never cater for every model. The R300 is at the bottom of the class 4 power range but to put it in class 3 would be unfair to class 3 competitors. R400s find themselves in that position in 5 which is unfortunate. Limiting 5 to 230ish bhp would then put most of the existing competitors out of the class. Creating 5b + 6 + 7 would mean only 2 or 3 cars in each class which nobody wants. There will always be winners and losers - I think that if you are really serious about sprinting you will get the best car for the class you choose but otherwise just turn up and have some fun. I drove for the first couple of years in class 5 on CR500 tyres! Oh and Chris - the only class 4 car to cross the line at Curborough at 100mph was Stuart and that was because he went so deep into Fradley he had an extra 20 yards of runway - either that or he has fitted Nitrous . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Shaun - I don't really think you should use the words.... I think that if you are really serious about sprinting you will get the best car for the class you choose because thats exactly what i did, everyone who is serious about this would have done the same as me, but for whatever reasons (wanted to tour more, hold its value, have the r badge cache etc) compromised and went other routes. I wanted an out and out roadgoing hillclimb spec car (no compromises) and the busa then as now is the best choice, everyone knows that and everyone knew that (driver ability aside 😳). But now becuase I did get the best car for my class I am now being moved to a class with at best 2-3 competitors in it 😳. If It was now that I was thinking of upgrading with the new classes I would strongly have considered other options becuase of the lack of competitors in the new class. I broadly support the reasons behind the changes Simon is making becuase overall I think they are in the best interest of the club and the sprint championship as a whole . Simon has talked to me as someone who is likely to be effected by the rule changes throughout and I am comfortable with the reasoning. We need to make the championship attractive to new entrants as well as exisiting competitors But as well as that we need to show the championship in its best light when we are an invited club to other events (so most really ) and I think having the fragmented small class numbers can possibly detract in some way. It is always something slightly sad when you see us go to other events where there are loads of classes of 1-2 entrants, whilst our championship has good fields in all classes (bar 6) . So i think this is something that needs to be considered as well. Maybe for events where we have few competitors in Class 5 and/or 6 we combine them on the day and we sort the scoring out afterwards like we do anyway. Rob Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal mickey Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 BHP alone is nothing to worry about - try putting over 200bhp to good use on a damp surface and you'll soon realise what i'm on about.BUT I don't believe it should be the deciding factor in classification. If you are serious about classification then cars need to be considered as a whole package. I'm currently working on an early GP car and even way back then they were classified on engine capacity and minimum weight....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Miller 7 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Saving the Nitrous for Anglesey Shaun 😬 😬 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSL Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Cutting to chase the main reason this class 5 situations seems to have arisen is that this year at the few events I've attended I've managed to go fairly well in a Busa car, the issue has not been raised to my knowledge during the previous 3 years or so whilst only the one Busa car ran happily in class....However to state a Busa is 1.5 to 2 seconds quicker is not factually correct, whilst it obviously is the weapon of choice on the hill's & tighter courses you still have to drive it..... Having looked at the National hill climb records for road going unlimited 7's type cars on road tyres (ie our current class 5) the majority of them are held by a father & son partnership using a 220 bhp K 7 all be it with a elite sequential box. Pretty sure most are a good bit quicker than the existing 7 club times, i.e Loton 54.1 vrs club record at what was it 55.05 (if you exclude me!) from memory 🤔 & Gurston 32.66 vrs club at 33.48 (if you exclude me!) shels 29.92 vrs 30.65 for the club, so all I'm saying is that it is possible to go quicker than our records with a conventional style car. I'm guessing the forthcoming class split is mainly due to the worry over Simon getting his hands on a Busa powered 7, & him wanting to do the decent thing for the other class 5 runners, but really whats to worry about there, from my understanding he usually won most events anyway didn't he 🤔 😬 As I've already stated it matters not a jot to me, I'll come & have a go at the odd one if I fancy it from time to time, but I do worry that the issue is maybe being over complicated & may cause very limited class numbers & loss of competition / camaraderie, but go with whatever you guys feel is best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydragon Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 the majority of them are held by a father & son partnership using a 220 bhp K 7 There you go. Bloody tyre warmers at it again, gaining an unfair advantage 😔 🙆🏻 😬 Ban them, ban them!!! ban them all!! 😬 (closes door on way out ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 220 bhp K 7 I think that must be at the wheels given the speed trap data at both Gurston and Harewood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydragon Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 it is possible to go quicker than our records with a conventional style car. Agree.... Harewood record for under 1700cc on list 1b is held by Robert Bellerby's Silva Stryker which has approx 175bhp and uses a H pattern box and ZZRs (effectively a low end class 4 car) at 60.29 secs 😶🌫️ 😶🌫️ Our class 4 at last event 60.08 Our class 5 at last event 60.75 (are these the L7C records?) For those who can really drive, I think we all agree that bhp is far less of an issue. I guess part of the wider debate, is attracting and retaining those less experienced club drivers, who because they are at the lower end of their classes' power range may not participate in the championship at all, because they believe they will be at a massive disadvantage to more powerful cars and that it would be a pointless exercise to compete (even if this really is a false perception as shown above). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Harwood Records Class Where Date Whom Time 1 Harewood 03/08/2008 Malcolm Hickey 67.21 2 Harewood 05/08/2007 Richard Price 65.02 3 Harewood 05/08/2007 Adrian Williams 62.32 4 Harewood 03/08/2008 Mark Durrant 61.37 5 Harewood 05/08/2007 Andrew Griffiths 59.11 6 Harewood 03/08/2008 Darren Luke 56.62 So our equivalant class record (class5) is well under that, but of course was in a Busa, not sure what our best under 1700cc on list 1bs car engine is at harewood edit to say of course the new class 3 & 4 records set this year 3= David Nelson 61.22 4= Chris Howard-Harris 60.08 rob Edited by - robmar on 27 Sep 2011 13:39:29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Miller 7 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Alan and his son run a modified K which is mid 220's BHP on the Dyno, so this is at the flywheel. This is of course a "real" 220 something BHP as opposed to Caterhams' quoted figures for their cars, which in my experience struggle to get within 10% of the quoted number (and that's on a rolling road). Backing up Darren's comment RE drivers and car preparation, the Warburtons are very experienced campaigners and the car is set up well. They of course have plenty of practice on the hills which I am sure makes a big difference. To demonstrate this, if you look at their times from Anglesey last year (where they have never been before) they would struggle to compete in our class 4, let alone 5, despite all the power and the sequential. I have previously fowrarded my opinion that I don't think there should be a power limit for class 5, but on reading some of the comments above, maybe we should consider a limit of around 230 to 235BHP. This would give a closer "class band" and possibly encourage some new people with R400 and R500 engines. To my knowledge, it wouldn't exclude anyone who currently competes except Rob Grigsby with his Duratec (I don't think there is another car in the paddock that would dyno at over 230?). I agree with Simon on the the new class for sequential and big bike engined cars and think he is doing the right thing here for the championship as a whole. He better hope he's a good deal quicker than 5 and close to Darren though! I do feel sorry for Rob with his Busa. From a personal point of view, as the class structure stands at present, there is no way I'd go into 5 without a flappy paddle Busa. With the new structure, I would consider 5 (i.e. without the big power and bike cars). I hope that this will also encourage new-comers whilst retaining everyone who currently competes. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Stuart - I can think of 2 from this year who may be effected also 1. the Heads have a big duratec, I think it is the same spec ish as Rob Grigsby 2. and recently back to the fold Richard Anderson has a 252K Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted September 27, 2011 Support Team Share Posted September 27, 2011 As above Richard A, Mark D, the Heads, Rob G, myself and Gill would all be excluded if a 235bhp limit was introduced (assuming Mark and I find our missing horses). This would also exclude CSR260s so that's Simon Jenks and James Moreton out as well. Steve Holland and Kevin Evans would be the only competitors remaining from this year! The effect of this would therefore be to create a "class 4b" and move most current class 5 competitors into the new class 6 and we are back to the original problem . We could have a further class for Haybusas and sequential boxes but this really would start to dilute the competition. If 4b (190 to 235) was really going to attract a lot of new competitors then I can see it as a possiblity - we might also see some class 4 move up. That 189.9 bhp 1.9K is looking more and more attractive now 😬. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Miller 7 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Oops, forgot about them and it would be nice to see them back next year. Maybe no limit on BHP then..... and back to "it's how you drive" rather than the machinery. An all inclusive class 5 (except for Simon and Rob? Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative Richard Price Posted September 27, 2011 Area Representative Share Posted September 27, 2011 Harewood record for under 1700cc on list 1b is held by Robert Bellerby's Silva Stryker which has approx 175bhp and uses a H pattern box and ZZRs (effectively a low end class 4 car) at 60.29 secs Robert Bellerby's name frequently appears at Harewood, and he held the previous list 1a tyre under 1700 record for quite some time..... I guess he knows harewood quite well, and gets plenty of practice...... I recall seeing Robert Bellerby at Loton a couple of years ago. His pace was nowhere near as sensational as his Harewood pace. But then, he does not go to Loton very often.... When I set my class 2 record of 65.02, I'd done the school a couple of weeks previously, and I'd been red flagged TWICE whilst trying to complete that run. The red flags gave me a little more practice at the bottom of the hill, and I was more familiar with the rest of the hill. I went back twice after setting the record, and only got with in three or for tenths. I guess if we went to Harewood more often, then I may have been able to sqeeze another few tenths........ Comparing L7club records with the normal "roadgoing specialist production car" is not realy that fair when we visit most venues only once a year. If the regulars can't beat us, then that's a poor reflection on them! Their times should give us something to aim for. On the Midland hills, Dave Wilson makes a, now very unfancied, 2litre VX go quite well, and Allan Warburton has been driving the hills for many years in an assortment of machinery. If DSL's Caterham pace looked good at Loton, then you should be reminded that he also holds the 1100cc racing car class record at Loton. I don't believe another 1100 car has been within a couple of seconds of DSL's time..... Maybe its not the car....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Miller 7 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Shaun I think we were writing at the same time. (and I must think at the same time as writing 😳 Definately back to my plan A then. No limit - seems to work fine at the moment. I think Darren is the only "blip" in that. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skydragon Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Agreed Richard, he has been a regular at Harewood for some time and should be an aiming point. My point was (in agreement with you) that it is the driver rather than the car that makes the real difference. Especially when skill/experience is combined with extensive track knowledge and preperation. Shaun - stay in class 4 with us, you know it makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 problem is that everyone with a powerfull Caterham ( more than 200bhp) wants to be a hero and they are terrified of rocking up and putting in a 60 second run at curbuggar so they use the excuse that they are disadvantaged ..... splitting cars with more than 230/240 bhp and or seqenchials makes a lot of sense if only to keep the perception that class 5 is a roadgoing class and class 6 is for specialised kit . it also makes a spectical of class 6 as the " monster class" where gonads come in xxxL size . dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david nelson Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Shaun If you are correct with Richard A, Mark D, the Heads, Rob G, myself and Gill, Simon Jenks and James Moreton this would make a bigger class than class 6 (BUSA class) This would lead to the potential for new sprinters to join in there K R400, R500 and D R400. This would be a very good way to show the club is trying to include more members by not putting BHP in the way. So we could have a new class with 230bhp max and it would already have Steve Holland and Kevin Evans in it. I can think of others that would join this class. Again why would you what to compete in an R400 if your against sevens with 30- 40 bhp more? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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