Phil B Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Hi Matt, I fitted a 2.0 Zetec using the Raceline kit in 2008/9 when I bought an ex-crossflow rolling chassis live axle car. Having spent 2 years running it on 45 DCOEs I changed to injection this winter and I wish I had gone that route from the start. I have a pair of Raceline cams, without the ported head and it gives me 185bhp, 160lbft and a big grin. it will pull away in second no sweat and i can trickle through town at 30mph in 4th. If you want a plug'n'play solution Omex sells a fully built (new) engine on injection using the Raceline sump, water rail kit etc. which produces 170bhp for £4550. This sounds a lot, but if you go the all new route and build it up from the Raceline kit (which I did) you can probably save nearly £1000. All depends on your abilities. Check out the Raceline.co.uk and omextechnology.co.uk website. Omex even offers a Rotrex supercharged option......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supersprint1988 Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Hi Matt Why not just buy Phils old carb/ecu of me. It gave 165bhp on a standard Zetec Blacktop Sorry for advertising in your tread 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the bass man Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 This thread is going well and I am getting a lot of great information out of it. I am now going to do a little left turn in the question. I have learnt a lot about the benefits of Zetecs from you guys and it seems a sensible way to go. BUT my heart is talking now not my head. What are the differences in a steel block v iron block crossflow, especially cost, reliability, etc. What is the 'sensible' max power output of a crossflow? I assume that the Zetec would be more reliable at a higher output say 180 - 200bhp than a Crossflow, could a crossflow go to 200 and still be reliable or would it cost so much it would not be worthwhile. Sorry for the extra questions but I need to tap your wealth of knowledge 😬 Regards Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drumster Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 This won't help but, had it not been for my x/flow going 'bang' see here, I would probably still have it. The change to Zetec just seemed the sensible thing to do. However, I do miss the characteristics of the old x/flow. Mine managed just over 50k between the initial rebuild and destruction. Given the grief I gave it over trackdays and latterly sprinting I felt 50k of mileage on that engine was pretty good going. There was some time ago a live axle x/flow punting out just over 200bhp but this was a special project by Roger King and Dr John. I believe it needed 'maintenance' every year. RK used to offer a 185bhp upgrade to the Supersprint engine and, again, I believe this was a more reliable unit. If Rob Grigsby sees this thread he may well comment as I know he used to have an all steel x/flow. I understand your head v heart conundrum, but ultimately I went for extra horses (more to come when I upgrade to TBs etc) and more reliability. When I get home on Saturday we'll have completed nearly 2,000 miles on our tour and unsurprisingly the Zetec hasn't missed a beat. Power is one thing but the extra torque is really addictive, especially when 2 up and carrying a boot load of gear plus a full re-bag on top. It's knocked spots of the x/flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GasMan Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Matthew, there are a number of things to consider. 1. Its 2011 2. Live axle its not just about power but grippy tyres road or road and track? 3. once you are used to the power you will want more. 1. in 2011 there's no sense in upgrading your crossflow. high power from crossflows need high maintenance. 2. live axle with grippy tyres is not good unless the axle is modified, ie baffled or changed for english or atlas version 3. you will love the torque and flexibility of a nicely specked zetek., Also a mildly hot cam will return all the induction noise of the crossflow. I know I did it. My advice would be to sell your car as is and look for a 2litre zetec 7 with about 200 - 220 bhp and you will be in heaven, but you really shouuld chose a de deon axled car. Hope that helps. Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative skeetsy Posted July 15, 2011 Area Representative Share Posted July 15, 2011 Quoting batteredoldsupersport: If it's a standard LA 7 the axle comes out of an Ital and the conventional wisdon is that 160 bhp is a practical maximum. The English axle is a Ford unit (I think it's also called an Atlas) taken from an Escort Mk2. It's true that the most common live axle in a Caterham is an Ital axle, but some of the early cars did have a ford MK II escort axle fitted and your chassis number can tell you more see here for a handy guide to tell you what your chassis number means. In terms of the name of the ford axle (if you are considering a change) it will be an English axle you need since this has a central diff position, the Atlas axle is a stronger unit which was fitted to the Capri, although there was a 'Baby' Atlas which was fitted to the RS 2000, the problem is that it has an offset diff position. The other difference between the English axle and the Atlas axle is that the differential in the English axle is removed from the front of the axle whilst the Atlas differential is removed from the rear of the axle. I hope this helps. All the best Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrightpayne Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Matt, I think SPC in redditch can modify the escort axel to suit, which should more than handle the power. You would need to source front hubs and a set of wheels to be totally ford PCD but should be doable cheaply. I know a few people who have gone the zetec route and none of them have regrets. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the bass man Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 Head or heart, head or heart, I will need to think this one over for a while. Any thoughts on steel over iron crossflow engines? Regards Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrightpayne Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Matt, I'm no expert but you could probably add £1.5-£2k for a steel crank and rods for any engine. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George C Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Iron Crank and Rods - Can be modified at reasonable cost and can give great bhp. With mods you are limited to around 7500rpm although some people push it higher. The crank and rods will be the limiting factor and are right on the edge of what they can do so reliability is a concern. You can build a very good engine around the original modified crank and rods but the they will be the limiting factor. Steel Crank and Rods - £ 1500 for the crank and £ 500 to £800 for the rods. But it doesnt stop there because you then carry on through everything else in the engine. Result - £ 5k+, you now have a proper racing engine, more or less bullet proof reliability, smooth running, you can use the 7500 revs now with no worries at all and the engine will be safe to 8500 (or more) if all the other components are up to the job. Power will be determined by the cam you choose and you will have a really exciting engine. In reality with a XFlow the power is produced across the rev range and tends to tail off at the top end so you dont tend to be bouncing of the rev limiter unless you go for a much wilder cam. I stuck with the 244 cam as it gives great mid range torque which makes the car very quick on the road. A 254 or 264 cam would give more power but at the expense of the mid range which might be OK on a track but less so on the road. With the 254 or 264 cam you will be in the 190bhp range I imagine but the valve gear will now be really stressed and hence the high maintenance. One other thing on revs. 2nd gear is really fast, 3rd gear a bit less and so on. If you have higher revs you stay in the fun gears for longer. So a 20bhp deficit to a Zetec for example is made up easily by still being in the lower gear. You have say 180bhp in 2nd at 80+mph with the high revs, the other guy in the lower rev limited car changed into third well before and is down the rev range with say 150bhp and a harder ratio to pull. The less powerful car is faster and thats why XFlows can still hold their own (until they go bang)! The XFlow route is interesting and you probably do this if you have some emotional attachment to the car for some reason. It is also nice to create something really special. The Zetek route is technically superior with the benefit of a modern deign etc and so you would have to say better but maybe not so involving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the bass man Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 WP - George' Thanks for the replies. I have to consider seriously the Zetec and it is not yet totally ruled out but I think that what I really want is a good spec crossflow and the all steel route is I think the way to go. I cannot go for a Wilcox BDR kit as it is too much money and my budget will hit the wall at 5k, but I am hopeing that for that sort of money I can get a nice reliable and fast road engine to play with for a good few years. Please keep all thoughts and comments coming and recommendations of good Crossflow builder. I am aware of SPR, Wilcox [expensive], protune/Ratrace. I am sure there are others but I do not know any more. So suggestions or reviews of builders either on this thread or by BlatMail would be good I am looking for a winter build so I am not rushing into anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSA Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 If your after an all steel Xflow you cant do better than Rob Morley at Protune/Ratrace in Potters Bar he ahs built some top spec Xflow engines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative skeetsy Posted July 16, 2011 Area Representative Share Posted July 16, 2011 a 5K budget may be a bit tight to realise a high power crossflow.... This is giving 180 BHP with steel internals in race spec and second hand the seller wants almost twice what you are thinking of spending All the best Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the bass man Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 I agree 9500 is a lot bit the spec is unusual with custom pistons etc. I think [hope] that it could be done for less. This is where the research comes in which I am doing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the bass man Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 As always I could be overly optermistic and wrong. Regards Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George C Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Many of the good engine builders can help you. I used Scholar as they are close to me in Suffolk, they have been building XFlows with easily as much racing success any anyboby else and I like the people - old school racers. Ask for Alan. If your budget is getting tight make sure you spend the money on the important bits first - crank, rods, pistons etc and worry about mapped ignition etc later. Plead poverty and use some second hand parts (I have some good forged pistons spare and I know Scholar have loads of second hand Webber 45s - So that could be £ 600 saved so far). You could base the engine around the Formula Ford steel crank (saved a further £ 900) with nice set of Arrow steel rods. Scholar have some of the original camshaft blanks from when they were first produced and have had them ground to 254 profile - these are far better than any new cams which seem to fail for some reason. They also have loads of second had bits lying around from many years in the business. My previous engine was a Roger King 155bhp spec which was also very good but I don't think Roger is building engines any more. If you want to have a look at my engine etc you are more than welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative skeetsy Posted July 17, 2011 Area Representative Share Posted July 17, 2011 I've heard a lot of good things about Scholar Race Engines and if I'm ever tempted to build an engine for my car I'll probably start with their 1900 EVO bottom end for the K Series..... But I still think £5K is a tight budget if you are not putting the motor together yourself, this nearly new standard FF1600 unit is just under your budget and would need to be provided with twin 40's and set up to suit (no idea what power it would have but is going to be a long way away from the 170+ BHP you are aiming at I would imagine) All the best Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Representative skeetsy Posted July 17, 2011 Area Representative Share Posted July 17, 2011 oooh but if you're thinking of stretching your budget then you might want to consider this 😬 If you like the sound your crossflow makes then that would be the next level up! All the best Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George C Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 A curved ball - The best sound will come from a bike engine and if you have a live axle car the Fireblade option would be fantastic and not too expensive. I went in convoy with a LCC rocket (with Yamaha 1100cc engine) a couple of weeks ago and the sound from that thing was truly amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dignity Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Quoting George C: A curved ball - The best sound will come from a bike engine and if you have a live axle car the Fireblade option would be fantastic and not too expensive. I went in convoy with a LCC rocket (with Yamaha 1100cc engine) a couple of weeks ago and the sound from that thing was truly amazing. Respectfully disagree George. The best sound will come from a BD series engine Although admittedly a bit over budget Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George C Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Yes, I agree that does sound fantastic but then again its bottom half XFlow and top half Cosworth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dignity Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 *arrowup*And expensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the bass man Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 this conversatin is very enlightening. I may have to increase the budget from my original 5k, based on the replies above, or, reduce my expectations. I think that STMBO will now come into play, fur coat? diamonds? something nice and shiney and I may get an increase in budget If anyone can give me realistic prices [not quotes] for a 170bhp + engine then I would be gratful so I can at least steel my self for the shock when I look for a builder. Matthew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltec Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 You could have 220hp with drysump from raceline for not much more? Is it really worth spending £x000 on a x-flow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheds Moderator Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Matt, it's none of my business but I can't follow your reasoning. You have an eye on the budget, reasonably enough, but want the right engine, reasonably enough again. Yet you decide to spend upwards of £5000 on a 3-bearing crank, 2 valve per cyclinder engine disgn in the hope of getting 170-180 bhp. This is in a world where a brand new, crated, Zetec with all the benefits of 20 years of engine research has 170 bhp out of the box without trying for £700. Add a bit for a sump, it's £1000 all up and leaves money over for an ECU and injection which will give you an engine that returns 30 or 35 mpg against a crossflow's 20-25. I don't get it. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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