Tony Martyr Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 I remember the first evening my 1600k SS kit arrived, sitting in the workshop with a beer thinking 'Gawd -what have I done'. I've just got it again to a lesser degree after purchasing a direct bolting TB kit and DTA ECU kit as part of my winter rebuild penance. Has anyone out there fitted this combination? At least with the Caterham I had the green book to mislead me; with this kit I have intuition and some very sketchy connection references. The software looks very good and while I think I have got the mechanics sussed and I have worked out some of the electrics with the exception of the throttle cable connection etc but I am a bit concerned about the amount of original loom I have to throw away together with the distributer, MEMs unit and original crank sensor. I intend to make a stage by stage manual complete with photos and will post it on the web - but first I'll need some help to identify some of the old loom I still need. Auto-electric experts please watch this space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadership Team SLR No.77 Posted October 10, 2000 Leadership Team Share Posted October 10, 2000 We're watching Tony, I'm sure there's plenty of us awaiting your full inst.manual. Might be worth checking out Dave Andrew's web sight. He's a hive of info on all things engine/techno/mods etc. http://hometown.aol.com/DVAndrews/kengine.htm Stu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 I have just mapped the entire Rover MEMS loom, whizzing your way under separate cover... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted October 10, 2000 Share Posted October 10, 2000 Tony, The supplied Jenvey throttle linkage is a mess, with too long travel and very poor progression to the extremes of travel. There is just room for a quadrant to be attached directly to the butterfly actuating arms that link the pair of TBs in the middle, which is much better. Having just done this myself, I have lots of opinions and pictures I can share. I also had the 42-45mm spacers, 90mm trumpets, filter and backplate from QED. Mounting the backplate between the spacers and the trumpets means: 1. You won't have clearance for the standard fuel rail (it might just be the fuel pressure regulator that fouls - can't remember) - not an issue for me because I went to miniature peco injectors and a new fuel rail. If it is just the FPR causing the problem a new fuel rail with separate FPR will sort it out and you can keep the standard injectors, which is obviously a good cost saving aim. 2. The filter will foul the removable chassis rail - currently addressed on my installation by mounting the rail in single shear underneath its intended double shear mounting. 3. The clutch cable may or may not foul the filter - cured on mine with a hydraulic clutch release. The alternative is to mount a modified filter backplate off the back of the trumpet flare, but the trumpet construction is not structural and will break at the seal between the trumpets and their mounting flanges. Mike Bees, Johnty Lyons and the ex-Ranson car all fixed this without too much trouble. I know what you mean about the sitting and looking at it sensations, feeling very similar to looking at a bunch of boxes and figuring that a car was inside. I would advise a plan involving lots of test fitting, with plans to revert to ordinary spec between times if you intend to keep using your car. Check the DTA and wiring loom against the standard plenum rig. It is easy to de-rig the existing wiring loom in situ (you can leave the alternator connections on and run off the battery to prove that the wiring and ECU are OK). This little bit of unit testing will give you a lot of confidence when it comes to swapping over to the new mechanical setup as well. Best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Tony - that's why I recommended you get a plug-compatible ECU! The DTA system needs the pot box for realtime mapping too, so you either have to buy one of those or take it to a DTA specialist (who will already have one) for mapping. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Martyr Posted October 11, 2000 Author Share Posted October 11, 2000 Thanks Peter the MEMS loom info will be invaluable. I will adopt exactly the type of cautious 'trial run' approach you describe, having the luxury of adequate time. I did not buy a filter because I could forsee problems without being able to define the answers. I have a friend and near neighbour with a state of art workshop and ingenious frame of mind - we will find an elegant answer! The engine brace is going to be close but can be modified. The clutch cable is somthing of a concern - I hadn't thought of that. A new fuel rail has been provided together with a new pressure regulator that is much bigger than the original. Mike, I must seem extremely perverse but I am able to do all of the real time work mapping with the new dta unit and I have some collegues who specialize in this work so will lean in their direction. I think their software screens are very good (compared with Bosch they are several generations more advanced) I will report developments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Mike / Tony Only old DTA ECU's need the pot box. The DTA ECU will not need a pot box if it's a new one. Mine was bought a year and a half ago and realtime mapping can be done straight from the laptop. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Alex - is the software that lets you do this downloadable from their website? I can't find any provision for it in the DOS version. Maybe it's in the Windows version? Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 All this talk of mapping. Can't find it in the Ordanance Survey version nor the A-Z! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red SLR Posted October 11, 2000 Share Posted October 11, 2000 Tony - I will be really interested to hear the results of the conversion, I will be doing the same in Winter 01 so let us know what the final result is. If you dont mind me asking how much was the kit, I have a 1660k SS also and I will have 1500 - 2000 as a budget. Thanks Simon. X777CAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Martyr Posted October 12, 2000 Author Share Posted October 12, 2000 Peter. I finally got the Access database you sent printed out an I'm mighty impressed at the amout of information, I have to sit down next to the engine to check I understand how to use it. Thanks again. Simon. The standard price for the complete kit is £1445+VAT. That includes the TBs,carbon fibre trumpets, fuel rail, fuel regulator, ECU, software, comms cable etc, crank angle & air temp sensor, double coil (taking place of distributor)and new loom. It does not include the filter body which I have to decide on later. It is nice to take my time on a job and put all the bits in boxes and try things out without being rushed. I feel quite relaxed about it now and I'm taking a series of photos of progress. When I find the clutch cable fouls I will be back to pissed off - till then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red SLR Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Thanks for the info. I know Winter 01 sounds a long way off but I like to plan these things out. What are the power gains when switching to TB? I want to go from 133hp to 163. The std 133 does not seem to be enough for me, I think that the extra 30 hp would make all the difference. In the dry I find the rear too grippy - as though there is not enough power to really spin the wheels. How much has this changed your insurance? X777CAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Just so Simon's aware... There are a lot of bits in Tony's kit that aren't needed if you get an ECU that's plug-compatible with the Rover one, such as "crank angle & air temp sensor, double coil (taking place of distributor)and new loom". Also you can reuse the Rover fuel rail & pressure regulator instead of plumbing in a new rail & regulator. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 PS: 30bhp for just switching to throttle bodies is only going to happen if you find a suitably optimistic rolling road! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Mike A VX Injection upgrading to MBE or DTA with Jenvey taper bodies, gains over 45bhp! Proven. My Caterham 235 as it was from Caterham in 1993 actually produced only 197BHP on a dyno on twin 45's. My first engine upgrade in 1994 was to the Jenvey bodies and MBE 912V3 ignition and that produced 238bhp - same engine, same dyno! Next to Swindon Slide throttles the Jenvey bodies are the Bee's Knees (excuse personal pun..) The length of the inlet manifold, matching and polishing and the length of the trumpets were all critical on my engine.... Arnie Arnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Martyr Posted October 13, 2000 Author Share Posted October 13, 2000 So far-so good The old plastic plenum etc is off and the new 'direct to head' throttle bodies have been fitted. The rear trumpet does not foul the clutch cable and the front one does not foul the frame brace. I now have to: 1. design and make a fitting to take the engine coolant hose out of the front TB casting. I will machine the flange face for an O ring and stub tube. 2. I have to figure out how to connect the throttle cable to the provided linkage. It appaers to be spot welded together so before doing something irreversable I'll try and adapt to it. At present I can't quite get full throttle position without something in the linkage stopping the motion. 3. Connection of the fuel pipes and new (jumbo) fuel pressure regulator. Lots of fiddling this weekend I will have digital photos but am at a loss as to know how to post them. If anyone is interested I'll email direct Two interetsing points - in each of two of the casting void cavities between plunum and engine block there was a dead fly. How did they get there? The machined inlet face has created a very sharp raised ridge at the entry to each port, a minuture knife edge. Just about the last thing you want in an inlet port is such a disturbance to flow. I will probable have gained power by very carefully deburing these faces/ports and putting everything back as was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Wong1697456877 Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Mike I use the DOS version. You just use the real time mapping section that would have needed the pot box. I think it's the plus and minus keys to go up and down with the advance but to be honest, I can't remember which keys it is. It's not in the manual but I know it works. Alex Alex Wong www.alexwong.net _________ / / ___ _/______ /_ ___ / (_) (_)/ /`-'/o/ _______ o/`-'/ / /// ( VDU7X ) \/ / /___/--_________/--/___/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red SLR Posted October 14, 2000 Share Posted October 14, 2000 I think at the end of the day my 7 will go to John Noble for the conversion. He said that he can do any modification I can afford - sounds goo to me! I think that TB's and head - maybe bigger valves or VVC head. That should easily get me 30Bhp +. I think I will leave it down to John to decide what the best route is when the time comes. (still only got 1000 miles on the clock!)(bloody rain) Simon. X777CAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Arnie - I meant that bolting throttle bodies onto a 138bhp K-series Supersport isn't going to net you 168bhp! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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