Championship Class Structure

[magister]

Wouldn't a 4/6 event hillclimb championship give members who gain an entry at Shelsley an unfair advantage, giving them an extra opportunity to improve scores at the expense of those without an entry.

 

PaulB

[CaterBram]

I haven't got the running list's for Wiscombe but a few stats for you based on the first 12 event's of the season.

 

99 Competitors

 

There have been 489 competitor entries.

 

2 Competitors have completed all 12 events

35 Competitors have complete at least 7 events

53 Competitors have completed at least 5 events

46 Competitors have not completed 5 events

11 Competitors have not competed at all

 

Average Score 94.919

 

Novices

19 novices

2 Have competed in at least 7 events

7 Have competed in at least 5 events

9 have competed in 2 events or less

 

Average Novice Score 89.256,

 

Personnelly I think the total number of event's is about right to give the variety and opportunity to compete without being overcrowded.

 

I especially enjoyed Epynt & Llys-y-fran which had small numbers.

 

No matter how many event's are in a season or how the championship is scored everybody has the opportunity to win event's . So the choice is your's compete in a number of events for the championship or competing in individual events for the event prizes. both are perfectly valid but would not need to drastically change how the championship is opperated.

 

I note the number of novices who only dip there toe in the water in the first season as a taster without having the confidence to go for there 5 not realizing that this is there only chance as a novice.

 

 

 

Q469 WET, 1990 1690 Xflow Long Cockpit in Ali except for the red bits. But hopefully a Class 2 150 ish BHP Zetec in 2011. With a Dual Drive :-)CaterBram on Facebook

[Nigel Fox]

In my view, any championship win should require committment, effort. skill and a resonable number of rounds. All this makes cost, which again in my view is unavoidable. Seven out of fifteen events if anything lets us off lightly, anything less would I think devalue the championship.

 

I would also like like to congratulate everyone who has posted (or refrained). This is a spectacular demonstration of how mature people can have a sensible discussion without falling out. Long may it continue even if the management team...... just joking.

 

See you all at Anglesey.

Nigel

PS Mark Gibson have you still got that axle? looking for one.

 

Full time class 4 Zetec

[Richard Price]

In my view, any championship win should require committment, effort. skill and a resonable number of rounds. All this makes cost, which again in my view is unavoidable. Seven out of fifteen events if anything lets us off lightly, anything less would I think devalue the championship.

---

 

I agree entirely!

I think the balance of events is good as it stands.

 

However, the addition of venues like Gurston Down and Prescott (or even Doune) would be good

[cskip]

Gurston.. Please! Please! 😬 That would be a brilliant addition to the championship.

 

Just been discussing the number of events with a fell club member, but not in the championship. He mentioned that theoretically someone could win the championship or a class without ever competing against the second placed driver. E.g. winner does first 7 events, second place does the last 7 events. Food for thought.....

 

I realise that one of the resolutions of this is to increase the number of qualifying events. I am going in circles

[David Lynch]

Some great comments and ideas. Shaun got it spot on (congrats by the way on your first class win. You give me hope )

 

7 out of 15 is reasonable given those that do more to drop the bad 'uns. If it was any more for a (nominal) full season I for one would just cherry pick and enjoy a few weekends away (and visit a few more with camera only). Double headers get my vote to keep costs down.

 

The idea of unofficial flat and hill champion would be good but we are all at the mercy of the inviting clubs.

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it...

 

EN Yorks 7's Flickr

[david nelson]

We ban ACB10's and 2way dampers due to cost but fail to acknowledge that competing with the current number of rounds could be a barrier for some finically.

 

I like our speed championship and it must the best one series championship in the UK but its not perfect.

Some of us need to juggle are family lives, work and finances.

 

If we look at the calendar from 2010 we can see that the end of April to May has 5 events. Out of 5 weekends there is only 1 weekend without a sprint. This is neither good for family life and is a significant financial outlay in a very short time.

 

We then have a break for about a month.

Then 3 events in a row, and a further months break.

Then Harewood to Wiscombe is full on for a month.

 

Looking at just the hills we would have had date as follows:

Sunday 9 May – Llys y Fran

Sunday 20 June – Epynt Hillclimb

Saturday 3 July – Shelsley Walsh

Sunday 8 August – Harewood

Saturday 14 August – Loton Park

Saturday 11 September – Wiscombe

 

This gives a better balance to the dates as they are spread out. This would help sprint/family balance and help spread cost over the months.

 

Looking at just the sprint dates these also work well for a split championship.

Saturday 24 April – Goodwood

Saturday 8 May – Llandow

Sunday 16 May – Curborough 1

Saturday 22 May – MIRA

Saturday 26 June – Castle Coombe

Sunday 29 August – Curborough 2

Saturday 4 September – Aintree

Saturday 16 October – Anglesey 1

Sunday 17 October – Anglesey 2

 

So we try to include club members by keeping cars close to CC range (a good thing) stop money being spent in class 1-4 and ban origanal tyre fitment to the Superlight (ACB10's) and say it due to cost BUT

only if you are prepered to entre a significant number of events we are not intrested in you competing but you could just turn up anyway.

 

 

David

[Clive Mccall]

I really am not very pleased about this

 

I've spent a large amount of time investigating the in's and outs of this and with Simon's help I have already commited to Penske 3 Way dampers. It was my decision to spend money on the suspension rather than the engine as confidence in the car is far more important than an excess of power that I or someone else can not use correctly. 😳

 

Now you are forcing me to spend another £3 - £5k on an engine so that I can compete with the likes of our Regalia Manager, Comp Sec, Gen Sec and Chairman. Life is just not fair. 😔

 

I will be bringing a senior representitive from the FIA to the Tech Forum. You know I have access to such resources - see you all there

 

 

 

Edited by - Clive Mccall on 19 Sep 2010 00:08:40

[Charlies Angel]

Sorry chaps but I do not 'get' the idea of reducing the number of events - you can just do the number that you want to. You do not HAVE to win (OK just me then), we are a club, and sprinting and hill climbs provide entertainment and competition for club members.

 

I would hate to see a split between Sprints and Hill Climbs, it is enjoyable to mix up the skills and advantage of one car set up over another.

 

Like alot of the Southern based competitors I would love to see somewhere like Gurston on the calendar. Visiting new venues is a great leveler, as you are not competing against people who have done the circuit many times before.Sadly however those who only do a limited number of events mostly avoided the new events this year.

I am all for keeping the costs down, but not by reducing the opportunity to take part.

Lynn

 

Having fun with Custard

[CaterBram]

It was all new to me this year...... 😬

 

The mix of venues was great and I agree it would be a great shame to either reduce the total number of events or the number of event's in the championship.

 

Do event individual class winners get any recognition at the end of season dinner ?

 

Everybody gets a chance for a class win regardless of if they enter one event or fifteen.

 

From a cost point of view I don't think splitting the sprints and hills would gain any cost saving as it would force competitors to travel further to get the minimum number of qualifying events for either the sprints or hills.

 

Q469 WET, 1990 1690 Xflow Long Cockpit in Ali except for the red bits. But hopefully a Class 2 150 ish BHP Zetec in 2011. With a Dual Drive :-)CaterBram on Facebook

 

Edited by - CaterBram Jnr on 20 Sep 2010 09:28:37

[GrahamV]

Just to follow up on Lynn’s comments:

 

I agree that we should not reduce the number of events – if anything I would like to see the number of events increased to give club members the widest opportunity to compete at different venues.

 

‘I am all for keeping the costs down, but not by reducing the opportunity to take part’…… good point

 

Thinking about the venues – I didn’t miss Pembrey – I think Castle Combe and Epynt were excellent replacements. Being a softy southerner I would also like to see Gurston Down and perhaps Colerne on the list for 2011 / 2012.

 

Graham

 

[Z3MCJez]

Softy southerners (or French people!) could also benefit from a sprint at Lydden Hill.

 

Lydden is actually a lovely place for a 2 lap sprint (about 70 seconds) if the sun is out and there is great viewing as the circuit lies in a natural bowl.

 

Jez

 

[Andrew Willoughby]

I strongly agree that we should keep the number of events as at present - I really enjoy the contrasting characteristics of the circuits and hillclimbs.

 

Just as a counter to the 'softy southerners' I'd like to propose a return to the 'mini Nürburgring' (Cadwell Park). The last time we were there was for my very first sprint in 2007 and I'd love to have another go! (The fact that I live nearby has no bearing on this, of course).

 

Andrew

[David Lynch]

Already practising just in case

 

EN Yorks 7's Flickr

[skydragon]

Just re-reading this thread amd near the start Mark wrote

 

We already use BHP for each class and we only allow sequential boxes in classes 5 & 6 in order to keep the costs down and to allow standard factory cars in the lower classes to remain competitive.

 

The 2010 regs appear to allow sequential gearboxes in class 4 (ie. they state sequential boxes are not allowed in classes 1,2 and 3, but do not say they are not allowed in classes 4,5 and 6)

 

Am I correct in this understanding?

 

 

[Offspring]

For my 2p:

 

Number and variation of events are just about right.

 

Restricting suspension upgrades, spending large amounts of money on suspension would be fruitless compared to engine upgrades within Class 1, so why bother restrict it, let a bling'd up car with 125bhp compete.

 

I'm open to other venue opportunities.

 

I really enjoyed Pembrey circuit but the Marshalling left an awfull lot to be desired.

 

I started competing in this championship because it is fun, the company and competition is excellent, a sentiment that has been re-iterated in several other threads.

 

A

[Nigel Fox]

Skydragon, I think you may have spotted an ommission fron the class 4 rules. I seem to recall that sequential boxes were outlawed, but last year "fireblade" type cars were permitted with the 1039cc rule, a sequential box should implicit with that. Don't think it was intended to allow them to be fitted by the masses. I'm sure the Chairman or Comp Sec will be able clarify.

 

Full time class 4 Zetec

[Simon.Rogers1]

Spot on Nigel.

 

I'll make sure that is checked/corrected if required.

 

 

 

Competition Sec

Management Team Member

 

If in doubt.......Flat out!

 

[skydragon]

I seem to recall that sequential boxes were outlawed

 

Wooaah !

 

Hang on a moment... Reading through the regs for the last two years and also doing a forum search in 'club speed events' there is no mention at all of any gearbox restrictions for class 4.

 

I don't see how it's fair to suddenly bring in such a restriction in at this point.

 

Going back to the topic of this thread and encouraging people to join and/or stay in the championship, it's important (in my opinion) to have stability in the various classes and when the benchmark has been set, it should be kept as such so people can plan upgrades and car development.

 

Background from my perspective... My (class 4) car has got a Type-9 5-speed box in at the moment which is soon to be replaced, becuase the synchros are going and it has far from ideal ratios for Hillclimbing... I'll probably replace it with an Elite sequential box. (I could buy a used CC 6-speed box, but it seems to make more sense to invest the money in a sequential).

 

Doing so is hardly going to make me start winning class 4. But I am loathed to spend good money on another synchro box.

 

*smile*

 

Edited by - skydragon on 21 Sep 2010 09:21:08

[RogerLegg]

As this thread seems to be developing into a general discussion I thought I would add my thoughts about the championship after my first year. The thing that attracted the speed championship to me was that I could compete against road cars of similar performance to my own. The club sprints often provide classes of very unequal machinery so it is difficult to know whether the best car or driver won. I have really enjoyed the events I have attended and the experience has shown me how far I am behind the best. I am probably too old and grey to win the class but I will enjoy trying to get as close as I can. Perhaps there should be positive discrimination towards pensioners.

 

I was put off entering last year (my first year of competition) by the location of the events. From Ipswich I would have to drive over 6500 miles to attend all the sprints and most of this is not on motorway. When I do have the luxury of motorway it is generally the M25 or the M6 around Birmingham. It would seem that the events are almost exclusively on the West of the country. We have Snetterton and Hethel (currently being upgraded) in East Anglia and slightly further afield Brands, Lydden and Cadwell Park. I am lucky enough to be retired and I have the time to travel but it might encourage more entrants if one or more of the events could be held in the East.

[skydragon]

*thumbup*Cadwell Park for a sprint event next year *thumbup*

[Adrian Williams]

Skydragon

 

I remember the discussions at various tech forums over the years and I also thought that sequential boxes were outlawed in class 4. I suspect Nigel is right in his thinking that they are supposed to be outlawed but the error in the regs arose when fireblades were quite rightly included into 4.

 

 

Adrian

[skydragon]

Hi Adrian,

 

Understood, but if this point never made it into the written regs, nor was communicated to the wider audience outside of the tech forum, then I suggest this can't now be deemed as a rule.

 

One of the reasons I started upgrading/developing my car to be Class 4, was I understood gearboxes to be 'free', whether that be H-pattern synchro box, H-pattern dog box or Sequential (as the 2009 and 2010 regs state). To change the written rules at this stage on such a major point would be a tad unfair IMHO.

[Adrian Williams]

I understand Skydragon but I think the rule was there initially and was then 'overlooked' when the wording was changed to cover fireblades.

 

As nobody in class 4 has yet turned up with a sequential I think it would be a good idea not to buy one before the tech forum, at that point you will be able to judge what the consensus in the room is.

 

The whole point of classes 1-4 is that the cars are as close to 'showroom' as possible in order to attract new members to the championship and keep costs down to those that participate.

 

 

Adrian

 

 

[Simon.Rogers1]

The 2008 regs. state that sequential boxes are not allowed in Class 4.

 

This confirms my thoughts and those of Nigel and Adrian.

 

Chris - I realise this may not be of much help to you. It is clearly an oversight and those who were at the Tech Forum will have been aware of the "idea" of the rule and therefore not questioned it. I understand that any new competitor would not be aware of the history.

 

The clarification of this rule will be on the Tech Forum agenda and will be discussed in full. As Adrian states I would hold off with any purchase until the rules are confirmed. Generally in the past all rules have been decided on a vote after representation has been made by those with strong views.

 

Simon

 

Competition Sec

Management Team Member

 

If in doubt.......Flat out!