DaveK Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Ammo in the interest of knowledge, why does the Millington diamond 2.5 produce a claimed 30bhp more than the 2.5 duratec, i realise its a purpose built race engine (with the cost to suit). I just wondered how they got the extra grunt . Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannylt Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 They've built more than just a single one, and have done development? Shorter stroke so much more revs? My 307bhp engine was limited to 8300, though peak power at 8000ish so with different cams it would be more peaky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 What's the stated power for the 2.5l Millington Diamond? Mountune offer a 2.4l 330bhp Duratec here Bit pricy at £21K though R400 Duratec Build and Modification Pictures here Edited by - MikeE on 24 Jan 2007 13:47:06 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannylt Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Err, 25k including VAT 😬. Surely the 2.4L RSTV8 has to be cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Sorry my mistake Danny 😬 So how about this at only £10K here R400 Duratec Build and Modification Pictures here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Mikwe, any idea what that is? Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannylt Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Well, it says Alfa Romeo on a cam cover. No guarantee, who can service, and gettings new bits? Doesn't mention weight either, and looks quite large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 don't have a clue but maybe the strange words Alfa Romeo on the cam covers mean something R400 Duratec Build and Modification Pictures here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 So Norman can't see the pictures and Danny can't read the text - it says 120kg!! 😬 R400 Duratec Build and Modification Pictures here Edited by - MikeE on 24 Jan 2007 17:41:07 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetestbestanden Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Imo, getting the most from an engine of given displacement is down to the amount of air that the pump can move per unit of time per unit of volume. All other major engine components being equal, that means the induction system & headwork I think. So the cost isn't just in the components but also very much in the expertise that an individual who knows how to breathe a head brings to the party. I know Ammo's got the credentials to qualify as an artist in this regard (e.g. Danny's engine, the Guzzis, et. al.). That's a skill that's very hard to quantify in pounds n pence, and it's one that I'm willing to pay for because experience matters a ton in the (black) art of breathing an engine. It would have been far simpler (but not much cheaper I think) logistically and otherwise for me to just toddle down the road to Cosworth and write a big check. But that wouldn't have been nearly as much fun and nowhere near as satisfying to me personally as working on a one-to-one basis w/ a Caterham owner who's also a very experienced pro. As a longtime independent contractor myself I prefer to support a small business like Raceco. I'm not a rich guy and I've been funding this work as I can, and he's been very patient w/ me. He's been great to deal with and I'm looking forward to the day when I can meet him personally. And run the engine too of course. Besides, non c'e nessuno chi parla in Italiano a Cosworth in Torrance, e loro non hanno la sensibilita per cibo buonissimo come Italiani! ------- Chris Blatus vincit omnia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Sorry mike, I didn't notice that. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
se7enmad Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Seems no one has done real reading on the duratec in the past ☹️ The duratec performance website used to carry a story about team bergenholtz in the US getting around a 1000bhp from what they call the I4 duratec(I for ingrid not 1) - from what I gather, I4 is the 2.3 duratec - this was with twin turbos and god knows what spec and cost/ Duratec performance does'nt seem to carry the article anymore but I found it on pistonheads... this is way back in 2002 - and people are discussing things now ☹️ article here before anybody enquires whether the 1000bhp methanol powered beast was reliable, and whether development stopped at the first 400m of run, have a look here it's evolution is now 1300bhp and 1000lbft 😳 😳 😳 Antonella 1998 Classic 1.6 Vx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
se7enmad Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Chris, come mai parli Italiano 🤔 PS hai fatto una scelta buona PPS ora mi buttano via da qua per aver detto questo 😬 Antonella 1998 Classic 1.6 Vx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tre Zarcoff Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I wish Ash Bailey would keep his psuedonyms to himself.... Dave Hardly. White Xflow with flans Don't point that bread at me, it might go off. Groucho Marx Updated photos here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskossie Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Chris, Can you gve us the basic details and specs, and hoped-for power output, of the 2.3 Durtec that Ammo is building for you? Do you anticipate any problems in importing the built engine into the US? I have been in contact with Cosworth in Torrance, California regarding building me a 250hp 2.3 Duratec, in part because I'd like to avoid any hassles with US Customs, EPA, etc. at the border. Tom Meacham Alaskossie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobuy Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Well I built (assembled) my 260-270bhp spec 2.3 myself. This was my first ever 4-stroke engine build and it all worked remarkably well. Costs were as follows: 2.3 Basic Engine £730.00 Rear crank seal (1S7G6K318AF) £19.00 Main Bearing Bolt Kit (ARP 151-5405) £85.00 Flywheel bolt kit (ARP 251-2802) £40.00 ARP Head Stud Kit (ARP 151-4204) £85.00 Spigot bearing & Misc plugs £10.00 Crank. pulley and sprocket, mod and key £175.00 Gasflow Head £500.00 Cold Start blank plate £35.00 SBD H Beam Con Rods £594.00 Valve spring set £93.00 Valve spring retainer set £57.00 Raceline RLD250M Camshaft inc verniers £405.00 Pistons PIST-OM-DURA-87.50XS £378.00 Pully Bolt (1149131) £3.00 Valve Buckets (1127886) £30.00 Raceline Flywheel £175.00 Titan Dry Sump £594.00 DS hoses £250.00 DS tank £200.00 Emerald ECU £550.00 Wiring loom & sensors £350.00 Cosworth Fuel Injectors £180.00 Total £5,538.00 with no VAT. However, I already had TB's, clutch, exhaust, alternator, starter and anything else not listed. I found the build process hugely enjoyable, however, as easy as the engine is to work on, you do risk muffing it up. Also I had all the time in the world and just like AMMO 😬, I needed to take a day to make absolutely sure that I had degreed in the cams correctly. Unlike AMMO, I had no idea if my engine would make lots of expensive noises when I first started it. You get what you pay for, or you take a chance on possibly saving/spending more learning the hard way. I got lucky for once and it paid off nicely. More importantly it gives me the confidence to rip my engine to pieces when I decide to crack the sump/block or something equally stupid. Duratec SV, built in Dubai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 This is going to be long winded so I'm going to do it in episodes. A bit like 24 but without the ads. I hope you don't all fall asleep. Episode one: Casbar I meant a price over what it would cost to do it themselves. My profit (dirty word I know) and overheads have to be met. A problem is that I am in competition with people who are not making any money or in some cases losing money and too dumb to see it until in a few years time they go belly up. Been around a long time so I have seen a lot of people come and go (and the circumstances in which they left, usually leaving a lot of debt with their, and my, suppliers). This summer I lost a lot of jobs because I would not lower my prices. If I lowered my prices I would have been a busy fool ,generating a lot of turnover and no profit. I went to the seaside a lot in the Seven and ate a few ice creams instead. The end result was the same, no profit, but also no aggro. I know of one concern that is running a very large overdraft. I reckon that for every engine they sell they are losing around a grand. They are afraid to put up their prices because they might lose customers. At this rate they will lose everything. A lot of engine builders are people who started as enthusiasts who have no idea how to run a profitable business. This describes me perfectly until my ex business partner, who was a customer at the time, came in and saved me from the brink with a large cash injection in the early '90's and turned the business around. Allowed me to do some good work, get factory sponsored and win a few races and a championship (I'd already won a couple of championships with no dosh, funding teams with 22 grand overdrafts and credit cards). Without him I would have folded ages ago. I suppose the mid ‘90s was the best period in business for me. The highest turnover and the highest profit. A quick look around the workshop today made me think of the cost of some of the equipment I have at my disposal. A flowbench that costs around £8,000.00. A Sunnen valve seat cutting machine that cost £27,000.00 + another £6,000.00 worth of tooling, a crank balancing machine, 3 mills, 2 lathes, a Ferranti for checking things like crank straightness, a magnaflux machine for checking flaws in metal, a crank balancing machine, a crank grinding machine, a cam grinding machine, a Delapena pin honing machine, a boring machine for blocks, a honing machine for bores etc. etc. etc. With me you also pay for my experience. If you don't think it's worth it nobody is putting a gun to your head to come and spend money with me. Customers will vote with their wallets. I do know that a lot of people are leaving the engine building business, some through no choice of their own. IES went last year. Cosworth have gone from around 500 employees to only around 140 recently, a guy I met yesterday shut up shop and has gone to work on agricultural machinery for somebody else (I used to work on Moto Guzzis so don't want to go there again 😬), another told me he is thinking of getting a job in the prison service (one of our growth industries), another left to do up a house in France which he is hoping to sell for a profit. We are talking about some very talented people that are just giving up on the whole idea. The only engine builders I know who are rich are people that stumbled upon a good idea and went off to do something else. Sorry state of affairs I'm afraid. I don't think it is limited only to engine building. There are lots of other industries that are suffering at the moment. Thankfully my sons have no interest in engines and will do something else for a living. Dave Maybe I should have said "without putting a strain on the available resources" Sounds better than "as cheaply as possible" 😬 MikeE I am working on a new engine. Should be out in the next couple of months. I am not disclosing any information apart from that it is of a different capacity to anything else I have built (I have so far built engines to 5 different capacities, this will be th sixth and hopefully the final spec), it has new valve sizes and cylinder head spec., cams of my own design, a new spring package that I have also designed, a new crank and rods to my own specification. It should make at least the same horsepower as Danny's engine, hopefully more. It will cost more than anything else I have built so that more or less knocks the idea of selling any on the head. 😬 I am finding these postings stangely amusing. I started off quite peed off at PeterT's comments, but now am taken to fits of laughter as I write as I come to the realisation that I may not be have to be doing this job for much longer 😬 😬 😬 My business partner who is much cleverer than me quit around three years ago. Still mates after many years, never had an argument with him. He still does my books. When I spoke to Danny today and told him I was thinking of jacking it in he told me to make sure I finished his engine first. Don't worry Danny I'll still build engines for you from my garage at the house. 😬 Useful for a bit of pocket money. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetestbestanden Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Antonella: Those guys w/ the 1000+ pony Duratec are burning nitro. I have the article at home. "come mai parli Italiano" This is an English club, and an English board, so it's only proper to use english, mostly. Oh, and my italian is like my english; it kind of sucks really. "hai fatto una scelta buona" I'm sure of it. "ora mi buttano via da qua per aver detto questo" I hope not! If you are even half so lovely as your name you should be kept around! Tom: It's a 2.1 (1mm over pistons in a 2.0), all steel, tall(ish) lift cams. I wanted to stay w/ a short stroke, oversquare motor. My current 2.0 makes enough torque (for me) as is and the realities on track here led me to decide to keep revving and pulling after the car I'm trying to overtake (big cars w/ big hp but bad handling and brakes are the norm here) has shifted. Can't say what the projected hp is but it will be north of 250 for sure. Just think of the sound at around 8500! And, yes, I always anticipate having trouble w/ the U.S. gummint. We're all terrorists doncha know. Actually, I have been in contact w/ a guy back east who imported a K. He said it wasn't that difficult. EPA isn't an issue I don't think (hope!), just customs. Ammo, Put me in the garage too please 😬 ------- Chris Blatus vincit omnia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonbell Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 My trouble is that I like to know how things tick.........I fix my own washing machine when it breaks, I repair the satellite reciever, I do my own work around the house, I service my cars and repair them if I can..........part of it is possibly becasue I come from Ballymena which means I`m as tight as a duck's 🙆🏻 😬 My mum tells me I was always dismantling things as a kid........ Engines have always scared me a little and the duratec is the first of mine that I`ve worked on, although I have fettled a few K`s since I got into se7ens. So I was determined to build my own engine.........and decided as I was going for a fairly std spec I could do it myself with some guidance from a few good friends........and it worked......and the sense of achievement is immense........that moment when you turn the key and you`re absolutely sh1tting yourself in case it makes some nasty noises........it comes to life, doesn`t go on fire.......doesn`t eject rods through the block and all its fluids stay in the right places.......... The type of work which Ammo is involved in is a different kettle of fish......exploring the boundaries of engines requires a lot of experience........so if I had the money to pay for the ultimate duratec I`d be knocking on his door........mind you if I had the money for an ultimate duratec I might buy an RST V8 instead Simon Bell - Caterham 7 Duratec R I`ve seen the future.....and it`s powered by duratec Check out the website here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
se7enmad Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Chris, I get your point but you started it off 😬 "Proper" on bc probably does not exist anymore. I think it is perfectly ok to switch to Italian just as the French speaking guys do... not offending anybody or anything are we? Babelfish solves any queries my postings may have created just as it solves queries for me sometimes. Well just be thankful I don't post in my native language. I am really tempted to put in strong expressions using that when i read certain posts. It is a little difficult for me not to sometimes, there are some expressions that I cannot find a suitable translation to in English 😳 End of hijack. SORRY guys Antonella 1998 Classic 1.6 Vx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CageyH Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Comme tu veux. Only dead fish go with the flow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 why would anything on this thread (certainly over the last few pages) offend anyone, seems fine to me Ammo - sorry to keep asking questions but, ignoring the new top secret project I was trying to figure what the other capacities were? 1.8, 2.0, 2.3, 2.4 (based on 2.3) and the 5th? R400 Duratec Build and Modification Pictures here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Whitley Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Sneaked details of Ammo's new project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Tony, Your link is absolutely not office safe! Mind you the "ads" at the bottom of the page 🙆🏻 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Whitley Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Oops! 😳 I didn't go all the way down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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