Ford Duratec.

[Miura]

It's been a long time since I laste enjoyed reading a TechTalk thread that much

Dave your idea to resurrect it is great, it makes fascinating reading

 

It got me thinking:

If we agreed 4 years ago that Duratec was the way to go. Is there today a more promising base engine ticking all the boxes (sustainable availability, base design suitable for higher outputs, light, compact, relatively cheap)?

I can't think of anything

 

Do you?

[metal mickey]

Is there today a more promising base engine ticking all the boxes (sustainable availability, base design suitable for higher outputs, light, compact, relatively cheap)?

 

 

Yep, its called a hayabusa. 😬

 

 

[Manxseven]

*arrowup* 😬

 

Caterham Fireblade here

[dannylt]

If you are into lightweight, power, and don't care about midrange torque, then clearly bike engines have been the way to go for years. However for me the best thing about my duratec is the monster mid range torque. And I'm sure there will be a fair bit more development on the duratec yet!

[I.Mupferit]

Did anybody see that special V8 at the Autosport show using 2 Hayabusa blocks and heads? I know it's been done with bike engines before, on the RST V8 for example, but it was a really neat, lightweight and compact looking unit with an alleged 360 bhp from 2.6 Litres!

 

If it proves to be reliable as well, that would be one helluva power unit to have in a 7.

 

I just love the engineering detail on the Jap bike engines and as time goes on I feel the need to own one becoming almost overwhelming.

 

Brent

 

2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive

R 417.39 😬

[dannylt]

PS An alleged 252bhp 1500cc Hayabusa will cost you at least £12k from Powertec... so not exactly cheap .

[I.Mupferit]

The 'busa V8 was sporting a price tag af £17,600 I think it was. Yikes! *eek*

 

For useable power at a more sensible price, your Duratec is obviously a better bet to those of us in the real world and really, the idea of 360 bhp in a road 7 is probably daft to say the least. I'd still like to give it a go though if I could afford it. 😬

 

Brent

 

2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive

R 417.39 😬

[Miura]

"Is there today a more promising base engine ticking all the boxes (sustainable availability, base design suitable for higher outputs, light, compact, relatively cheap)?

 

 

Yep, its called a hayabusa."

 

OK Metal Mickey you got me 😬 😬

I don't have either the financial means of the talent to exploit 200+ sevens. My question was more aimed at fast all rounder sevens : road blasts, long touring, track days ...

[Normans_Ghost]

Can someone tell me what's wrong with the Duratec?

 

Ammo gets 300 bhp on the first attempt so I guess this engine will soon be upto 350 bhp. At this output it will probably be at the R500 K series level of needing regular rebuilds.

 

So what's wrong with a Duratce, expect to those who have something else?

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited

[I.Mupferit]

Nowt wrong with it at all Norm, it's a very good motor considering its humble parentage and it is probably fair to say that since the early 60's, production Ford engines have formed the basis of more fast road and race engines in Europe than any other mass producer of family cars.

 

The 105E 997 Anglia Kent engine saw sterling service as a screamer(for its period) of a unit in F3, the 1500 Kent block was obviously the basis of the Lotus Twin Cam and F2 FVA Cosworth engines, the 1600 Kent block was the basis of your own engine, the Pinto for the 2L Cosworth turbo etc. So whether wittingly or not, Ford do seem to have a habit of designing engines that lend themselves to decent power hikes, albeit with money and knowledge thrown at them where necessary.

 

Brent

 

2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive

R 417.39 😬

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 19 Jan 2007 12:49:52

[Normans_Ghost]

Brent, That's what I thought.

 

So why are we having this debate?

 

I'll bet Ammo didn't spend anywhere near what I have on the BD to get my 220.

 

I also suspect that the Duratec will be around for as long, if not longer than the K has.

 

I don't keep up with these things but is there a relationship between the Sigma and the Duratec or are they completly different?

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited

[dannylt]

Ammo did not get 300bhp on the very first attempt - as he said, it wasn't easy, and it involved a lot of hard work and discovery. There was almost no standard part left on the engine! However, he managed it on time, and *almost* on budget 😬. The relatively hard thing about it is that you can't rev it high because of the long stroke, so it needed to make a lot of torque. The good thing is that means the midrange is fantastic.

 

There is no way 350bhp is happening without spending absolutely silly money - you'd be better off just going for an RST-V8 to start with and saving your money. 320 might be possible one day? Anyway. 250 is more than enough for road use probably.

[I.Mupferit]

The Sigma is a completely different engine to the Duratec and shares nothing between them other than the Ford oval in the castings 😬

 

Apart from the odd problems I had with my engine, I haven't heard of any other major issues with the Duratec and given that for the last 7 years it has been fitted to some of the most popular repmobiles on the road, I think if there were going to be any major reliability quirks we would know about them by now.

 

Certainly, the trade was aware of K series problems an awful lot sooner than that and I imagine Ford must have rued the day they were forced to accept it in the Freelander, what with all the warranty claims they were faced with. It couldn't have done the marque image any favours.

 

It seems to me that built properly and well maintained, the K is not a bad engine as such but it does seem to be very fragile and less tolerant of abuse than engines from other manufacturers.

 

Brent

 

2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive

R 417.39 😬

[Normans_Ghost]

Danny, I never said 350 would be cheap. Getting my BD from 150 to 220 wasn't cheap.

 

But I see what you mean. Still there doesn't seem to be a lot of competition around at the moment

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited

[Normans_Ghost]

Grant, a lot of people knock the "K" and forget that it started life in a shopping trolley. Once the head gasket problem is sorted I understand they're reliable to about 190 bhp.

 

I think it's a brilliant design and is close to the design that Issigonis did as a replacement for the "A" series in the Mini.

 

I wonder what Caterham would have used if they opted not to use the "K"

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited

[Jason Plato]

there have been issue with the Duratec - timing chains , oil pressure , cranks in race engines.

 

the future for duratec is the 2.4 & 2.5 L engines and conversions that will go towards 320 ++ bhp I imagine .

 

Dave

 

 

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia Area Rep

[I.Mupferit]

That is where the experience comes into it I guess and knowing how to resolve such problems as they arise. Any engine that is taken way beyond its design limits is liable to experience such problems and the clever bit is overcoming these problems and ending up with something that hangs together long enough to fulfill its purpose. That is where people like Ammo excel at what they do.

 

Brent

 

2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive

R 417.39 😬

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 19 Jan 2007 16:36:10

[AMMO]

Dave

 

I have encountered the cam chain problem a couple of times in engines I have built. I have resolved the problem as far as I am concerned. The mod is incorporated in all the high rpm engines I build.

 

The crank problem is a design fault on aftermarket cranks which should be resolved when the new Raceco billet cranks arrive in the next month or so. I have employed an engine designer that designed some race cranks for my around ten years ago and a fairly fundemetal fault has been found. Makes you wonder what the noobs that designed the race cranks were thinking of.

 

I have never had any oil pressure problems (apart from when a dry sump belt came off!). The problem Brent has had is fairly unique and I am not aware of anybody else having the same problem. I never saw Brent's engine in bits but have talked to both Brent and Pete at Raceline to give daft suggestions to what it might possibly be. A one-off problem as far as I know and hopefully one that will never rear its ugly head again.

 

In the mean time I have not let the grass grow under my feet. I am working on a new head with revised valves and springs. I had to design some new bits for those as well. There are two new engine capacities I am playing with as well, as I have already said, a new crank and also new rods.

 

Watch this space.

 

Sorry to you all if I got a bit hot under the collar but this is the way I make a living and sometimes I get a bit carried away. It wasn't PeterT in particular as I really don't know him at all apart from what he writes here. It is more the general attitude of the buying public at times gets me down. People didn't use to haggle, buy crap on eBay. Some learn all about engines on the internet so that people who only discovered last week which way bolts turn actually try to tell me my job. They also like to waste my time picking my brains for all the information they can get for free and never buy anything. I have become a free consultancy service. All anybody is interested in is price not quality, results or experience.

 

On the plus side the guys at work said I was more cheerful today. Probably because I got a few things off my chest. 😬 and possibly beacuse I am finishing a couple of Duratecs that should really kick 🙆🏻

 

 

AMMO

[mic]

Piston speeds are the limiting factor for the long stroke Duratecs, forced induction may be the way to go.

[Normans_Ghost]

Sorry to you all if I got a bit hot under the collar but this is the way I make a living and sometimes I get a bit carried away. It wasn't PeterT in particular as I really don't know him at all apart from what he writes here. It is more the general attitude of the buying public at times gets me down. People didn't use to haggle, buy crap on eBay. Some learn all about engines on the internet so that people who only discovered last week which way bolts turn actually try to tell me my job. They also like to waste my time picking my brains for all the information they can get for free and never buy anything. I have become a free consultancy service. All anybody is interested in is price not quality, results or experience.

 

I've heard that before from an engine builder who doesn't anymore

 

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited

---

[I.Mupferit]

Sadly, the 'cheap is good' ethic is rife in many industries now, including my own. I prefer to use the term 'cost effective' to describe a product or service that does the best possible job at an economic price, given the time, knowledge and experience that has gone into producing it.

 

Time was when we could give a reliable service with a first class product and our clients were actually prepared to pay a bit more for it as it gave them peace of mind. Now, however, our industry is entirely price driven and no matter that we may provide a better product or more reliable service, if we aren't the cheapest, we don't get the order - simple!

 

I have lost £20,000 orders for as little as £5, would you believe, even though I and the client know they are taking a risk with a supplier who is known to be unreliable. There is rarely any such thing as supplier loyalty any longer. ☹️ I have had people come into my office and pick my brains on a particular system design they may be after, get me to give them a list of components and then tout that list around 4 or 5 other suppliers to get the cheapest possible price without even giving me the courtesy of a chance to match or beat it. You wouldn't believe some of the underhand practices main contractors in my industry get up to in order to deprive you of money that is rightfully yours - it just sickens me!

 

It wears you down and can turn you into a very cynical person. This is the whole reason why I have had enough and I'm busy planning my exit strategy in 3 years time because I am sick of people coming into my industry and trying to screw me over. There are still a few pleasant people I deal with in business but alas they are becoming fewer and I now have no real enthusiasm for it any longer so have decided to get out before the bastards completely grind me down. I see BlatChat as a bit of a release for me during the working day, which is why you lot see my name so frequently, 😬 and thankfully I have very many good friends, including some on here, whose company out of work I cherish and who keep me sane, along with my family of course.

 

The 'Cheapest is best' mantra is rarely true in my experience but then, true quality never did come cheap as Ammo well knows. It's just a pity that more people don't understand this!

 

Brent

 

2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive

R 417.39 😬

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 19 Jan 2007 21:59:22

[EFA]

Following Peter T's idea of resurrecting comical threads heres one about power claims and 1/4 mile ET's here

 

At least I delivered something reasonable from my 257bhp VX*. The Brighton handicap referred to is 2 secs.

 

(*As measured at Road and Track)

 

 

Had Count's car had ACB10's we'd really have seen how strong Norms 220BHP is. He's a fine one to brag about power. If all that investment only gave .2 of a second, something is very wrong somwhere.

 

Count's car is a stock 1600cc Superlight (unported, unmatched head, std compression ratio, std supersport cams) with Roller Barrels and an R500 exhaust, running on an 1800cc map from someone elses car! Can't see that delivering less than 60-70bhp short of a real 220bhp engine.

 

EFA - Ex Fat Arnie

4 Counties AO and owner of K2RUM The car of two halves which is very nearly back on the road.

[Tony C]

Know what you mean Brent - sad but true. Nobody seems interested in value for money

 

BRG Brooklands SV 😬 It seems that perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to take away. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery)

[se7enmad]

Ah, so are people admitting that most posts, and I am not especially relating to the one you quoted, related to quarter mile timings and supposed bhp are quite shall we say, not very credible 🤔

 

Quarter mile calculator anyone? Let us not further hijack this thread, I suggest you open another.

 

 

 

Antonella

1998 Caterham Vx 1.6

 

[Tre Zarcoff]

But Arnie, apparently you have 40 BHP more than Norman and only ran 0.13 quicker?

What is your point?

 

Why do you have an axe to grind all the time?

Is there some history I don't know about?

 

I like cream...