Ford Duratec.

[Tony C]

Ammo. Particularly like the DEOC concept 😬

 

Just ignore 'em

 

BRG Brooklands SV 😬 It seems that perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to take away. (Antoine de Saint-Exupery)

[Peter T]

My earlier comments were not cause for critiscism upon engine builders, and yes i know how hard and expensive it is throwing money at engines to get the last amount of power available, i know as i have paid thousands on existing powerplants.

What gets up my goat is people are forgetting that engines proir to the nail were getting huge BHP from them, and yes i have seen a 324 bhp Spiess engine ( running on Carless fuel) so it is not magic to me for an engine that is 20 years newer to produce alike figures.

Engines nowdays have considerably grown in capacity compared to engines of old, who has ever seen a 1.3 mondeo? most engines now are 2 litres and above so figures compared to cars of 15-20 years have no real bases on power, and yes i know thee newer cars are heavier.

 

There is a point to which the limiting factor comes into play regarding power from a car derived engine of 4 cylinders and 4 pistons, and really this was achieved back in the eighties and nineties (non forced induction)

The only real benefits from now are the introduction of injection ( but this does not always produce more power)

And better control of ignition ie ECU's.

What would be good is to see a comparision of an XE and nail but both in stock 2 litre spec. 😬

 

R500 Mango Madness

[I.Mupferit]

And do make certain it doesn't have any 'slight surface imperfections' or you'll only upset people.

 

Sounds like a good idea Ammo, you're obviously a crap engine builder if you can only get 300+ bhp from a 2.3, so you may as well try something you might be good at ❗ After all, my cat could probably tune an engine to give more power than you can get out of it so I would quit while you're ahead if I were you. 😬

 

Brent

 

2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive

R 417.39 😬

[Normans_Ghost]

I was about to say that I belonged to the DEOC when I realised that as I can buy a new BD engine from Wilcox I'm barred from membership. 😬

 

I thought everyone knew there is (was) a 300 bhp VX engine. I mean if we're told it's true it must be.

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited

[Peter T]

Ammo, carbon fibre business is great, you can really enjoy the pitfalls of second grade products that eat into your profitts.

If you wish i can sell you mine . *tongue*

 

R500 Mango Madness

[dannylt]

PeterT - why are you calling the Duratec a nail? A nail refers to a car as a whole.

[I.Mupferit]

Ok time for a sensible post from me.

 

Peter, I don't believe anybody has said that some engines prior to the Duratec were incapable of producing large power outputs. It is, however, quite rare for a standard mass production and widely available engine to be endowed, from the design stage, with the inherent capability of being tuned to the levels we are talking about here.

 

The Duratec fits that requirement for a modern lightweight engine that is relatively cheap and in its standard form is a good basis for being developed to the sort of levels Ammo is achieving. I can't think of too many more engines in current production that meet all the same criteria, are widely available and cheap(ish). It does, however, still require an awful lot of work to get to the giddy heights of 300bhp+ from 2.3L, whatever the engine, and there are few like Ammo who have the necessary experience and knowledge to do that whilst retaining reliability.

 

To answer one of your questions, in stock 2 L spec I understand the Duratec will produce around 185 bhp. If my memory serves, I believe the standard Caterham setup with the Vx (on carbs) was about 175 bhp wasn't it?

 

Oh and shouldn't it be........."gets your goat" rather than.........."gets up your goat" 😬

 

 

Brent

 

2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive

R 417.39 😬

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 18 Jan 2007 12:14:59

[dannylt]

More importantly, what's the next engine Ammo, since your other predictions were all correct? (And no bike engines please - midrange DOES matter).

 

[Jason Plato]

I'm glad you didnt mention "weight" Brent

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia Area Rep

[I.Mupferit]

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me ............and another thing, the Duratec is lighter than the Vx!

 

Ok DJ 🤔

 

Brent

 

2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive

R 417.39 😬

[Peter T]

Ok so it is.

But the k is even lighter !! 😬 😬

Did i tell you i have a nice reliable k engine now. 😳

 

R500 Mango Madness

[Jason Plato]

😬

 

the mans in denial, give him time .......

 

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia Area Rep

 

Edited by - Dave Jackson on 18 Jan 2007 13:13:20

[rj]

Peter,

 

 

You are correct. Your engine in it's current state won't go p**f as no wear is to be found on an engine in bits

 

In that way it's very reliable in spite of being a K....

 

/regin

[se7enmad]

what really amuses me (do we have a smiley for sarcasm on bc?) is how slow people are to move on with things. Tried and tested, becomes tired and weary IMHO. It is 5 years since that posting was started. Seven since the engine has been available. Looking at things from a simplistic point of view the duratec is alu head and alu block. A factor people are going to put tops on their list if they are choosing a new engine to drop into their engine bay. Look at the head. Puts BD's into shame to a certain degree. Especially because of the cost factor. Of course you will have to do work on the head and it will cost you £'s. Of course to get reliability and the power figures most components will need changing. Of course you need the availability and once the pocket and the suppliers are available there is no stopping to get to an easy three hundred.

I think people forget what three hundred is. For many it is just something to boast about in the pub. I doubt many have the balls (sorry) to floor a three hundred.

What AMMO predicted in 2002 was not BS. He correctly valued the cost before there were the suppliers and parts there are today. He also got to his three hundred laboriously, and I still remember the day when he got the news about his 275, as he was helping me get my se7en to the UK. He was chuffed to bits, but he knew what the potential was and he needed to get to it.

Life being what it is means that to develop things you need the customers to require it for you, so a bit more than that three hundred may be still achievable for people who have the trust and the pocket to get there.

Now going back, there are still very conservative people there is Burton doing the BD business and Alu Vx blocks still in the market. As much as I like crossflows and BD's I am more interested in innovation.

 

So, why on earth do people persist with the same things and the same arguments for ever and ever amen.

 

The duratec has been the way forward for seven years. People have been relatively blind to this.

 

As always I look forward to posts about people doing things a little differently than 'run of the mill' but may I say, maybe I need to look for other another forum as whoever tries to innovate in thought or in practice, over here, gets a good thrashing ☹️ ☹️

 

Edit: a few spelling mistakes as usual 😬

Antonella

1998 Caterham Vx 1.6

 

 

Edited by - se7enmad on 18 Jan 2007 18:34:04

[se7enmad]

I was thinking that maybe, as a reply to my own posting that some people need their hands to be held prior to taking a decision and they cannot look at an object and responsibly or intelligently decide, with a little guidance, (which is what bc SHOULD be about) whether it is what they want and what they need. Too many questions and too few decisions.

 

Antonella

1998 Caterham Vx 1.6

 

[EFA]

Norman, as for sly comments about excessive bhp claims and people who know everthing, I suggest you balance a mirror upon the top of your lovely new toolbox. You appear to know a lot about what people (who often don't know themselves) want you to hear, thats what makes you and the insecure people around you behave the way you do. Personally I already wasted 30 seconds typing this, which I have grown to learn is far too long on a subject matter as insignificant as you.

 

 

[DaveMorris]

Any possibility of turning this topic back to engines before it degrades 🤔

A few of the posts above have merely served to distract from some worthwhile reading.

I don't really know any of the posters I refer to above, so don't know if they're letting themselves down by some of the comments being made - but if you're not careful, you'll have wonky settling down comfortably, waiting for more. 😬

 

Dave.

 

Oh - and not having the money, or a strong enough diff, to have a 200bhp something or other or even a 300bhp something else doesn't stop it being an interesting read.

 

 

 

X-flow(er) powered

[metal mickey]

reliable k engine ..........................oxymoron 🤔

[I.Mupferit]

As someone well known to you all said to me only about 12 hours ago............."it's about time we had a good disagreement on BlatChat to liven things up a bit."

 

Come on chaps keep the insults going, this thread is running out of steam already!

 

So to quickly sum up, thus far we have had:-

 

1) Peter T implying the Duratec is as yet unproven and what's all the fuss about?

2) Ammo telling us his job isn't easy

3) Norman agreeing with him

4) Metal Mickey agreeing with Norm agreeing with Ammo

5) 7 WoTW agreeing with Metal Mickey agreeing with Norm agreeing with Ammo

6) 'Pie Man' finally conceding the Duratec isn't the heaviest engine around.

7) Antonella being the voice of reason

8) Dannylt obviously needing a manicure as he is worried about his nails

9) EFA, well what can I say.............just being EFA really and doing what he does best!

 

Any more care to join in the fray 🤔 😬

 

Brent

 

2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive

R 417.39 😬

 

 

 

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 18 Jan 2007 23:33:46

[Peter T]

Oi, i am doing my best to entertain all those who cannot be bothered to interject any constructive critiscism.

I have also pulled up another thread for entertainment value too. 😬

 

 

I don't get paid for this you know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

R500 Mango Madness

[AMMO]

Peter T

 

You cannot compare a Spiess engine with Raceco engine. One is made by a big company with a big budget and the I'm just a one man business that has to work with a very limited budget. The Spiess had a lot of development, a team of people with state of the art faxcilities, reversed , specially cast head, frequent re-build intervals etc. It probably cost a small fortune to develop. On the Duratec I had to design the induction, exhaust, cams and spec. the engine so it worked pretty much first time. The engine is a road engine that is hampered by a long stroke and running on pump fuel. I did what I could to obtain the figure required and succeeded. I did it. I was the first independant sh1t-kicker to do it. This is something I am very proud of.

 

You seem to think that this requires no skill and that it is no big deal. This is what I find very offensive.

 

If I had the budget of Spiess I could probably have coaxed a few more ponies out of the Duratec don't you think? Please try to compare like for like.

 

“A couple of years will see development and prices of components will come down to quantities, also more products will begin to flood the market.” Just like in the carbon fibre business?

 

As for costs coming down in the future I think you are kidding yourself. You are wrong. If you were right I would agree with you. But let me tell you that after 25 years in the business I do know more about it than you do becuase I have the benefit of having observed what actually happened rather than what you think may happen in the future by gaziing into your crystal ball. Statements like "prices will come down in the future" are nonsense because they simply aren't true. Labour rates will go up as will the cost of quality components. The engines will become a little more expensive each year. Have K-Series or Vauxhalls become cheaper recently? They are already as cheap as they can be. Unless you get one built by some noob who is living under the impression that they actually know what they are doing with cheap bits bought from here and there.

 

I recently lost a job to such a person. He managed to make an engine that was 30 bhp down on power, proving that it ain't a piece of piss as you seem to think and that the selection of your engine builder is quite important. I really hate the “anybody can do that attitude”.

 

I would not permit myself to say that the power Dave Andrews is getting out of his K Series engines is easy because I know it isn't. But if we are going to play the bhp / litre game I have worked on championship winning race bike engines that have made in excess of 200 bhp per litre. I'll soon be going to a Moto GP test session in Spain where the engine make even more than that.

 

Does that mean that if you can't match that power output per litre you are a crap engine builder? I set out to obtain 300 bhp from I Duratec. I did that. I succeeded. The car won the fastest Caterham in the World event and is the most powerful Duratec Dave Walker has tested at Emerald.

 

Does that not count for anything? So what giddy heights have you reached in motorsport?

 

Maybe it's an Italian thing. The problem is that "you show me no respect". Some of your comments are incorrect and you need to be told that you are just plain wrong. Duratecs will get cheaper!! Pah!

 

 

 

 

AMMO

[Jason Plato]

On a consructive tone ( calm down - this is begining to sound like a Exiges.com thread )

 

I have found the price of Duratec parts are pretty much the same as the price of parts for other engines - cams, pistons, rods, valve springs, engine mounts, throttle bodies, looms - they are all the same price as one and another .

 

But it is cheaper and involves less labout to get 230bhp from a 2L duratec compared to a 1800/1900 K series.

 

The slightly more expensive side is the gear required to physically install the duratec in a caterham - things like , water plumbing, alternator mounts , cam cover alterations and balnking off the emmisions stuff. But on the otehr hand you can use the ford starter, and leave most of the internals untouched.

 

Dave

Dave

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia Area Rep

[Peter T]

I cannot understand why you think i am having a personal dig at yourself, i am not fact.

Your comment about the power per litre and cr*p engine builder is not my statement, so don't throw that in my face.

Where did i state that it requires no skill?

Perhaps debates like these are not worth talking about if people get hot headed and resolve to personal attacks again, because i really do not have the time.

I agree with the Spiess engine in terms of budget, must have cost a bl**dy fortune!!!

 

R500 Mango Madness

[Normans_Ghost]

I see Arnie's shooting himself in the foot again.

 

Isn't it funny how he always jumps like a puppet on a string.

 

(Is that Ok Brent) 😬

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited

[AMMO]

PeterT

 

I don't consider what you say as a personal attack. Let's not go there.

 

You said:

 

"The likes of all the tuners quoting mega high BHP just fuels the market for their own sales!!"

 

I quote the power figures I do because my engines actually make that power. Yes I do have to make sales. I have to eat. It has been increasingly difficult to make a living in the last few years. This is something that is echoed by all the old-timers I have been speaking to recently. You informing people to wait because Duratecs will get cheaper doesn't help at all.

 

"Anyway what is so special about getting 250-300bhp from 2.3 litres?" Well it may not be a big deal to you but it is a very big deal to me.

 

I have probably over-reacted because the two comments above made my blood boil. Lets' leave it at that.

 

AMMO

 

Edited to correct dodgy spelling.

 

Edited by - AMMO on 19 Jan 2007 10:01:20