AMMO Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 Brent There are plenty of 2.3 engines available but not at the old price. Now if we want them we have to pay more. Who said engines were getting cheaper? AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Ah I see, so the laws of supply and demand are taking effect. "You beat a path to my door for my products, therefore I charge you more". I can understand that! 😬 Brent 2.3 DURATEC SV Reassuringly Expensive R 417.39 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 5 K Tony here is C7 TOP Taffia Area Rep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 £10k is not a bad estimate for a 250bhp 2.3l Duratec depending on what you already have in the car in terms of fuel system and ancillaries etc. Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 It amazes me that people can quote meaningless figures for engines . Common sense dictates that a price is dependant on the spec of the engine. Who is building the engine and what is it being installed in. Then we get to things like Dry Sumping, trick exhausts, Electronics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Ok just to clarify, £10K is probably about right for a 2.3l 250bhp duratec with dry sump, all ancillaries (ie throttle bodies, starter motor, clutch, exhaust etc etc) but not including the ECU or wiring loom. Although the exact price is dependant on the spec broadly speaking £10k will get you in the right ball park for that level of power (ie not £5k or £15k). If you start playing with trick exhausts, big valves heads and steel bits then the price will climb quickly but you don't really need any of those for 250bhp as far as I can tell (says the person with steel rods in his engine 260bhp ish 😬) Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Sorry Rob but I still think your posting is misleading. I concur that you can probably buy a 250bhp 2.3L for 10K or much less. You could build your own engine for far less, you could use a secondhand base engine. You could use cheap forged pistons and cheap steel rods or you could fit Arrow rods and Omega pistons. Lets stop this nonsense as its not helpfull to anyone to quote prices that do not relate to a detailed specification of components and a work schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wile7 Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 £10k *eek* Wow. This is the 'big boys' league me thinks. Is this just for bits or including someone doing the work? I am thinking that this is basically a race spec (for mortals) engine....sorry for the numpty thought but I am trying to catch up with all this engine stuff (yes, I am being simplistic) and trying to 'learn' as much as I can before taking the plunge. I want the fast road route not a racer. At those prices it's easier just to buy another car possibly...but keep it coming, I am learning alot Dave Ardley. White Xflow with Clams Don't point that beard at me, it might go off. Groucho Marx Updated photos here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 The £10k figure mentioned is for a complete built engine, I'm not going to argue with you Rob you could do it for a lot less if you do the work yourself and source different or cheaper parts, that price is based on an all new engine and parts assembled by someone who knows what they are doing, ie you just turn up at the end and pick up the engine basically ready to install in a car (just about anyway!) It is just a guide figure, as you have pointed out there are lots of ways to reduce the cost if you want to but for a non-engine building person like myself that's the sort of area it's going to be to ask someone to build something like this I suspect. If anyone wants more detail drop me a mail offline, I'm happy to discuss my spec and exactly what parts went into it to get there, although tbh you'll be better off talking to Ammo 😬 Willie7 - you're right it's a fair chunk of money but you if you look at the end result, 260bhp and lots of torque in a engine that (touch wood) so far seems to be pretty reliable (8k+ miles including 4k+ across the USA in 35+ degrees c temperatures) I think it's justified. At this level of tune I suspect it's an engine that will last for a long time. Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Edited by - rgrigsby on 23 Jan 2007 14:08:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 My 5K estimate to Tony was with me having a fair idea of his current engine, induction and management and knowing what he has and what he can carry over - just as I have. Your right in that you could elevate a budget to 10's of £1000's or you could use all second hand parts and cheap Chinese rods etc and do it yourself. 250 bhp is fairly easily extracted from a 2.3 L following a fairly well tested route and list of parts off the shelf. 250bhp from a 2L is more headwork. In essence its the similar path and cost to most other engines - bearings, rods, pistons, rings, cams , springs, induction, exhaust, ecu, head porting, bolts plus the engine instalation "kit" and mods to enable physical fitment in a caterham and of course the options of dry sump or wet. The instalation mods are just as complex as the tweeking of the engine..... here is C7 TOP Taffia Area Rep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgrigsby Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 The instalation mods are just as complex as the tweeking of the engine..... Err yes, I think Chris at the 7's Workshop will testify to that, trying to fit the 2.3 in a 1992 dedion chassis without any of the right engine or gearbox mounting brackets/holes plus the early design chassis tubing at the front made it quite "intersting". Rob G www.SpeedySeven.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delbert Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 £10k Wow. This is the 'big boys' league me thinks Not really, project ZeNA has been halted cos the K series pushed to the limit was not far off once installed and thats an engine no longer in production. If at first you don't succed Sky diving is not for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetestbestanden Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Cams timed in today. More *cool*ness Ammo, YHM. ------- Chris Blatus vincit omnia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Dave If you can build an engine and install it for 5K then good luck to you. Personally I think you are going to spend a bit more but if you can do it than I take my hat off to you. Does the price include flogging off your old stuff or is that an outright price? Are you having anybody do any work for you or are you doing it all yourself? Are labour rates really cheap in Wales? Maybe I should re-locate 😬 One thing I'll say for Mr. Jackson is that he is a gentleman. We spoke on the 'phone the other day and he said: " I won't pick your brains for engine information because I won't be buying anything from you". Fair enough Chris YHM back AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tre Zarcoff Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 You have obviously never met Mr Jackson 😳 I like cream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I was quoting a cost of parts Ammo @ 5K carrying over ecu , induction, injection, silencers parts anyone would use and costs( not cheap rods etc)are easily to add up from the Raceline brochure - its even laid out so that you can see the packages vs bhp. Labour is dirt cheap, I only cost myself 1 cup of coffee per hour I actually meant that I wont waste your time because I dont *need* to buy anything at the moment 😬 I'm also looking forward to comparing the performance and handling of the duratec vs K series. I'm going to get some times at venues I know realy well with no other changes in chassis etc ( apart from diff ratio chnage from 3.92 > 3.62). Dave here is C7 TOP Taffia Area Rep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannylt Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Dave - I thought you were aiming for around 220bhp from your Duratec - how can that compare with your old K - I thought that was 250+? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 power doesnt realy count for much at places like Curborough sprint course - I only went 1 second slower with 100 bhp less power. Also I imagine the duratec will have more area under the curve and hence have more power and torque low down but less top end power @ 220 / 230 bhp vs 247 peak on the K . The weight penalty and the effect of engine position will be interesting to evaluate in handling terms ( all else being equal) as will the feel and characteristics of the engine - how much slower to rev up and drop revs during gear changes. Grunt is one ingredient - the whole package and the way it all behaves and relates to lap time is another here is C7 TOP Taffia Area Rep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Are Dave Jackson and Emma Roids the same person? Notice how you never see them in the same room together? For a moment I thought Arnie was Emma. Arguing with himself hoping somebody would join in. I know a girl called Emma. I keep thinking of her as Miss Roids now 😬 I musn't call her that in public just in case the nickname sticks. 😬 Dave At only one cup of coffee an hour you could come and work for me. 😬 Good luck with the handling and performance in the new incarnation of your car Still think it can't be done for the price, even with no labour, but I'm sure you will go out of your way to prove me wrong. I'm building myself a new 2 litre Duratec at the mo based on a second hand unit. I'll tot up the prices and see what it comes to. I'll use the full retail price of parts and no labour just to see how it compares to your figures. I'll also dig out a few old quotes and maybe post one to show where I get my complete install figure from for those who may be interested. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannylt Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Ah Dave - but you'll be older & slower than last year anyway, so not a fair comparison 😬. I presume you've gone for the lightest flywheel possible if you want a quick rev drops. With that power level the ultra lightweight one should be fine. Or you can have my old one if you like (only slightly fried by Edmands' slicks ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 but you'll be older & slower than last year anyway too true ☹️ , glad you didnt mention fatter tho 😬 Ammo - I'm not Emma but I know the bloke who is........ I'll not be going out of my way to prove you wrong Ammo - lifes to short and my pies are having a bad day ☹️, but I will add up the *total* cost of my project once completed and let you know. I'm not in business with these engines so I dont need make a justification of cost . But anyone can add up the costs in the Raceline brochure. here is C7 TOP Taffia Area Rep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 That'll be great if you let me know at the end Dave That way I'll be able to give customers a true view of what it is possible to do it for themselves and what it wiould cost if I did it for them. Some customers don't really have the time or inclination to do the work thmselves and seem to be happy to pay a premium price and give me the work. So there are two completely different markets. There is a place for both to co-exist. Something I have been telling my customers for years is that even I can't afford some of the engines I build for them. A case in question is the engine I'm building for Chris in the States. It has a lot of bits in I would have liked but can't afford! So in many respects I am going about building my own engine the same way as you are building yours, as cheaply as possible for what my pocket can allow. Luckily I have some nice customers that let me build some nice stuff and I can let my imagination run away with me and see results on the dyno that I would never see otherwise. that is the good part of my job. Sorry about the pies. It's snowing here and I must really get into work and get those engines out of the door rather than just talk about it 😬 AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casbar Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 "Some customers don't really have the time or inclination to do the work thmselves and seem to be happy to pay a premium price and give me the work" Ammo, I would be happy to pay a reasonable price, but Premium suggests something different 😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 *smile*As "cheaply as possible" is probably the wrong term. I'm simply using the parts that are required to do the job of 220 / 230 bhp reliably. I'm quite happy to pay for rods, cranks, and all the fancy gear if its required. But with the objective of 220/ 230 bhp only some of the goodies are required and that is what determines the budget and spend As you said before, you cant make chicken soup with chicken sh*t. But there is also no need to add truffles, and gold leaf crutons to make a good soup 😬 here is C7 TOP Taffia Area Rep Edited by - Dave Jackson on 24 Jan 2007 10:07:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeE Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Ammo, Last year you gave us quite a bit of detail on DannyLTs engine (which I know Danny was ok about going public), so are you building anything even more extreme/exotic and if so can you share the details, expected power, costs etc - obviously don't mention the customers name but would liek to know what is the latest and greatest from you I see on that Macys site they're offerring a 2.5l 350bhp short engine R400 Duratec Build and Modification Pictures here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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