Alex Wong1697456877 Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Does anybody know about the Ford Duratec engine and it's suitability for a seven? How tunable is this engine? I hear that minister have a 250 duratec in the pipeline. Anybody know more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECR Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Alex It's only your clutch that has burnt out..... it can be fixed, honest ! 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Alex, Very tunable I understand. There was a lot of discussion about this engine on here a few months ago. Raceline in Surrey have had one running in a 7 since the early part of this year and the general wisdom is that the engine is easily good for 300 bhp+ and is very light in weight. The only, fairly minor, drawback is the exhaust exits on the 'wrong' side so not so good for a retro-fit ant the bell housing doesn't follow the normal Ford pattern but it won't be long before these are available I feel certain. Call Raceline if you want an update on the development stages reached so far. Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Corb Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 The duratec HE engine (official name for the 4 pot verison) appears from its basic construction to be very tunable compared to the K and VX engines . Being of an aluminium head and block construction (with cast in steel liners which will be less prone to the reliablilty issues which affects the K) the weight is very low. Not far off the K series, much lighter than a Vauxhall. A major factor in determining whether an engine is suitable for high power tuning is the available area for the valves,especially inlets. As the Duratec is over square in that it has a 87.5mm bore and 83.1mm stroke (for the present 2.0 version anyway) there is plenty of space for fitting large valves. The K is undersquare and is restricted in valve area for its capacity and the VX is square. Another benefit of being oversquare is that for its capacity and rpm the piston speed will be lower leading to less stress in the cranktrain (relatively). In addition the std intake port design is rather good so the breathing of the engine is not restricted either. There is at least 1 Duratec now running in an R500 chassis which the owner is chuffed to bits with aparently so it can be done. This particular engine is fairly std right now but will be removed over the winter for the first dose of upgrades, which will be interesting...250BHP here we come!! I'd choose this engine if I were building my car today (but only because I cant afford a Cosworth KF engine...) Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Piper Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Minister have a development engine, I saw it a coulpe of months ago - I thinkthey were hedging their bets onthe XPower deal at the time. They didn't indicate any plans to put it into production though and as is their usual style, wouldn't be drawn on power output, beyond stating that it was very competitive.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Barbie Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Tunability aside, the Duratec still has to have the exhaust on the driver's side and I don't like that on a Caterham. Given the deal for X-Power done by Caterham, meaning the K will be the power of choice for some years to come, I think your best bet is to forget the VX heavyweight stuff and convert to a K. I think if we can convert Alex, Mr Webb will follow and then the plans of the dark side will be coming along nicely. On a serious note, I keep on hearing 300bhp from a Duractec is very achievable so bang for buck, it's a good choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 It's luvverly. I want one. Big valves and ports as standard. If someone really goes to town with this engine big horsepower in a light package should be available. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groutledge Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 As for the breathing being the opposite way to a K I wouldn't worry unless you're bothered that people may think it's a Pinto. The exhaust will also offer side impact protection so it's got to be a good thing! Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Alex The Duratec is a great engine. My car has 600+ miles on it. It is using a Pace dry sump system with my design sump tank, which various people are now using for the K series. Power output is around 190 using a Scholar Engines map.Engine will be out during the winter for the upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Alex. If you want to see a 'Duratec' in a really tasty installation set-up you need look no further than Mick Attree. His machine is finished to a very high standard and looks the biz. I saw the engine before the DTHTB's were fitted and the ports are massive with a direct shot into the cylinder.If it wasn't for the 'stippled' cast marks you'd have thought it'd been 'worked on'. If I were in the market for a new Se7en I would think that I'm 95% convinced it would be a 'Duratec'. The exhaust on that side may even warm that side of the car in Winter! Clamshell Club Founder Member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul.davis Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Alex, Im keen and have spoken to Minister and Raceline. Minister have Duratec prototype at 250bhp, and expect customer production version October. 300 bhp potential (Minister and Raceline) means it should be a lazy 250 lasting a lifetime with bags more potential than the K and not much different on weight. Im guessing £5 -6k with dry sump and Caterham mounting kit at 250 bhp?? Raceline are rumoured to be working on the 2.3 litre version (US Deisel block, with all other bits the same - lower revs but even more horse and torque?) Also suits Quaife type 9 5 speed box with needle rollers, best using the torque and not spending every few seconds changing gear (six speed!). Raceline have also moved the whole engine back by over 25 mm helping weight distribution slightly. My wife thinks its a great idea swapping over the exhaust. I wonder what impact this will have on Circuit drive by noise meters though . . . If induction is noisey as seems probable, it may need a box . . . I want one but dont want to be the guineau pig! Im guessing I will go for one at 250 next year. Paul Zeeeeeeetec . . . . . . Edited by - paul.davis on 29 Aug 2002 23:25:09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Going slightly off subject, the other interesting Ford engine is the ali block 1700 cc Puma. This engine in de-stroked form is used for Super 1600. With plenum and single 60 mm throttle body it is currently producing 230 bhp. A 1700 cc version with individual throttle bodies would be nice. Isn't there a class for 1700 cc in sprints or hillclimbs? AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Bees Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Yup. There's currently a very quick yellow Westfield (with a very quick driver - he was nigh on unbeatable even with his old Avenger engine...) running around with an Aldon-developed 1.7 Puma engine in it. Details are a bit shrouded but it's likely to be putting out over 210bhp on throttle bodies, which makes the 230 for a 1.6 on a plenum sound very impressive indeed. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry.h Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 John Palmer has been using a 1700 Puma engine in sprints and hillclimbs in his Westf1eld for the past season. He has broken records wherever he has gone. The only person who has occasionally got the better of him is Mike Bees. Developed by Aldon, his Puma reputedly produces around 210bhp with a good flat torque curve. The Puma engine comes with steel crank as standard and does sound rather like a bike engine when on full song - perhaps betraying its Yamaha connections. If the Duratec is in any way similar it has great potential. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry.h Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Thanks Mike, Coincidental posting - but both telling the same lies!! Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Biddle Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Hmmm.... 250-300 HP, more reliable than K, much lighter than VX, and best of all the exhaust is on the correct side for me... Anybody wanna buy a 225 HP VX lump??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 FWIW, 250bhp is not *easy*. 125bhp/litre is ok from the breathing requirements given the valve area, but it still involves a lot of reject heat and significant revs and high valvetrain accelerations and proper management of the oil system with shallow/dry sump fitment. The first people to develop these engines to the 250-300 bhp mark in any given installation may get lucky, but to stand looking at the on paper spec and declare the engine "reliable" at 250bhp is a bit simplistic. It sounds like a good thing that Raceline are on the case 'cos they usually get things right. As for 5-6K at the 250bhp point, with Caterham mounting kit and dry sump... seems like a bargain if anybody can get down to that price. I am expecting a headline price to look attractively like 5-6k, but the as fitted price to be significantly higher because that is the way such projects always turn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 10K is probably more in the ballpark for an installed high output Duratec. Once you get over about 110 bhp / litre you start looking at new crank, rods, pistons. cams etc. Very little of the original engine will be left. Then you have things like dry sump, flywheel, bellhousing, exhaust not to mention re-skinning the car and re-painting. Did I mention ECU and throttle bodies? Make that 12K. Oh, and engine mountings and plumbing and etc. etc. I have seen 158 / 160 cfm on my flowbench for heads with similar sizes as the Duratec. There is no reason to believe that the Duratec will not acheive this. This gives it a 275 bhp potential. With more work and possibly bigger valves more could be acheiveable. Whether it stays in one piece and for how long is another question. Only time will tell. I ran a 82 mm stroke engine reliably to 9,200 for a few seasons. At least the Duratec crank is in that ballpark and not as long as some of the other production engines out there like the Zetec at 88 mm stroke. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 For anyone who is interested I spoke to the people who build the homologated Super 1600 Puma engines for Ford today. The engines make 226 bhp approx at 9,500 rpm. The only major components that are kept from the donor engines are the block and head castings. Virtually everything else is changed. Price is in region £12,000.00. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Ammo, Don't they do a 1700 as well ? I bet thats quite good , or is the 1700 a different engine ? Someone told me that certain versions of the 1700 come with a steel crank as standard. Do you know if thats true or were they pulling my wotsit ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Graham The donor engines for the Super 1600 rallye cars are in fact 1700 cc units. They de-stroke them for the class regulations. I don't know if the stock engine has a steel crank or not but could probably find out. You're not thinking of getting rid of your X-flow are you? Ithink the Puma engine was developed by Yamaha. It's a pretty little thing. The dry sump is basically a flat plate under the engine. It has a strange split line or something. I'm going to see the people that build them next week (in Essex!). I'll have a better look around and probably get some photos. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cskip Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Does the Puma engine exit on the wrong side as well? Skip. X-flow and proud - Can you fit Sat Nav in a Seven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Perry Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 I had considered trying one when they first came out, but the reverse flow head and the unusual bell-housing have put me off, although I know both of these drawbacks can now be overcome it would still not be an easy engine to fit. I think the Duratech though may be the way forward in terms of the Blue oval in sevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmandsd Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 'An easily achieved 300bhp+' ..........but it will probably be a lot harder to achieve this output in reality from an engine predominantly designed for road use. As for 'a lazy 250 bhp'..... well again I think this will still require a fair amount of tuning. Comparisons with engines of smaller capacity are fine but it's worth remembering that it's eassier to get 150bhp per litre the smaller the engine. That said both the Duratec and Puma lumps seem to be a good tuning basis and are of course lighter than their iron blocked equivalents. Home of BDR700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 The VX was sort of built as a road unit. Didn't this achieve 300 bhp in Touring Car? Don't know the answer to that. Just asking. The guy who I spoke to about the Puma today came out with an interesting concept. In his words "The Zetec is the new Crossflow". He may be right. The Zetec is as plentiful and cheap as the Crossflow was a few years ago. He couldn't see the Duratech as the sort of engine the club racer could afford (yet). The Crossflow I took out of my car weighed 100 kilos. The Zetec that went in was 110 kilos(with a steel flywheel). An all steel Zetec should cost little more than an all steel Crossflow. The difference being probably around 70 bhp more. Now what would I rather have? Ten kilos less or 70 bhp more? Hmmmm. Go on the brothers Perry. Get over to the knacker's yard and get yourself a 300 quid Zetec and get stuck in. You know it makes sense :-) AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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