paul jacobs Posted August 25, 2002 Share Posted August 25, 2002 Yes, I know that you can register, for a charge, with Tracker so that if your car is moved they will ring you on your phone and check that this is legit., but it occurred to me that it wouldn't be difficult for someone with a bit of knowledge to make a little "Black Box" which could be hidden in the car and programmed to dial out on one of the mobile networks, to a pre-registered number, if it became actuated after being set. This need not involve any sort of registration as such, beyond being connected to a mobile phone service supplier, but obviously wouldn't allow the car to be tracked. BUT, you would know if it was being interferred with though, and if close by, could do something about it. I haven't seen such a security device, but does anyone know if there is one made and marketed, if not, are there any good reasons why such a device can't be made for a reasonable price? Failing that, how about one that sends out a signal to a pager or similar device? If there is money to be made, don't forget who thought of the idea! Red 245 bhp 21 Now for sale. [Offers around £16k considered!] Edited by - Paul Jacobs on 25 Aug 2002 13:23:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted August 27, 2002 Author Share Posted August 27, 2002 Well, 62 people have looked at the topic and so far not one of you know if there is such a device. What are people thoughts on this - would it work, or am I just barking up the wrong tree? Red 245bhp Vauxhall powered 21 [Now For Sale] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Den Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Don't most pagers work on the basis that the person who wants to send a message, rings a number and the operator takes a short message that is then sent to the pager? I don't know if you can send a message directly to a pager, I always assumed that the pager service providers made their money from the person calling, who wanted to leave the message. If you can't send a message directly to the pager, then I don't think your idea could work. I suppose the idea could be adopted to send a SMS to you, but SMS messages aren't guaranteed and are often not instant - especially at peak times (say, New Years' Eve when everyone is texting each other to say Happy New Year) - your car could be gone before the SMS arrived. I guess the only guaranteed method is a tracker type device. Den 😬 - Self portrait - still unable to remove the smile! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 One manufacturer used to make an alarm with a pager, only problem was that it had a very limited range of about 1/2 mile. And the other problem was battery drainage from the receiver, as it had to be on all the time!not quite sure that it took off ,as i have not seen one since,also as it transmited a signal all the time it was prone to be cloned. Tracker really have the market sewn up regarding these units, being the only unit which meets all the relavant standards that insurance and Thatcham require. I have had to fit a Tracker moniter to my vehicle in order to obtain insurance, and yes when i was on a ferry they rang me on my mobile to let me know that my car was moving without its engine running! C7 PWT X-Flow all Steel Life begins at 40(00rpm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted August 27, 2002 Author Share Posted August 27, 2002 Don't pagers use the BT or some other network? Therefore range shouldn't be a problem. As far as battery life is concerned, can't they use rechargable batteries, so whenever the engine is running the charge gets topped up. Not on a monthly basis obviously, but daily perhaps. Sorry, I'm either missing something crucial here, or it's a bl**dy good idea that's just waiting to be developed! Red 245bhp Vauxhall powered 21 [Now For Sale] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 I'm no expect but anything that makes mobile phone calls will need to have paid for the service/line rental. I suspect the 1/2 mile range was because the car transmitter contacted the pager directly. To use the 'normal' paging network the car alarm would need to telephone into the message centre so that a messgae could be sent. Jimbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Sewell Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 If you used SMS, yes there would be a minor charge. But assuming that it was centred around a 'pay-as-you-go' tariff it would need to send a message every 60 days or so to ensure that the provider does not cut off your number which would amount to a total of 60p per year - a £5 top up card would last about 7 years! Then you just have to find some way to get the damn thing to transmit when you want it to (when the car is taken). Any issue with delays in the transmission is mute, because the car is taken by the time you would receive the message by definition (if the car hasn't been stolen there wouldn't be a message). What this sort of system would do is allow you to alert the boys in blue to look out for your car while it is hopefully still in the vacinity. Low tech luddite - xflow and proud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 And here I come with the answer!! (this is my department!) The product you are describing has been done, and is marketed in the UK under the guise of "CARBUG". You have InfoMap on your pc and you can even dial the car at any moment and it shows it realtime on screen as a moving icon! The disadvantage is the fact that the police are not involved with it, so it would not be very easy to convince them to "go and find my car" like it is with Tracker (the "official" choice of the Police). Also, GPS is limited because it doesn't work in garages, lock ups or trucks. CARBUG is £650 ish (yikes). Tracker, however, works on land based radio and is heavily endorsed by the five-o. Also, it is only £199 for the basic one! I once did a bit of digging to find a cheaper way of doing this GPS thing and there are a few firms in Taiwan who make a similar thing with a price of about £300 - the only problem being the quantity required (how many container you like, Sir?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted August 29, 2002 Author Share Posted August 29, 2002 I was hoping that you come back on that one Julian. Very detailed answer - thanks. A bit too expensive though, I fancy. As you've done the digging already, it seems that that is it then. Pity, I thought it could work so well to, oh well back to Tracker then. I wonder if they do discounts for several cars? Red 245bhp Vauxhall powered 21 [Now For Sale] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnusfeuer Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Ahh.. Telematics... My profession. I am a systems architect and lead developer at wirelesscar's U.S. office (www.wirelesscar.com). I play with these things all day long. The kind of anti-theft device you describe are being developed everywhere and will be available within 12-24 months. Recipy for people who want to do it themselves: Buy a used old GSM phone with a serial interface such as an Ericsson T28. Beware of the really old Nokias since they do not follow the GSM serial interface command standard. Get a serial cable for the phone. Surf over to www.parallax.com and order a Basic stamp 2p for program logic. While you are there, pick up an ADXL202EB accelerometer for movement detection. Add a small NiCad battery that is continously trickle charged directly from the car's battery. With this, a theif can remove the battery and the unit will still react for several days. Power the phone from the NiCad using a power regulator. Route +12 and ground to the NiCad charger. Route the ignition signal to one of the basic stamps' I/O pins. Program the whole thing to send an SMS when the car is moving without the ignition being on, and (if you want to) the ignition is turned on. (I have the Hayes command set to send and receive SMS-messages if somebody wants it.) You could then send another SMS back with a PIN-code that would have the Basic stamp cut the ignition or ground the ECU, effectively switching the vehicle off. Package the thing in a sturdy case and bolt it to somewhere where it is not noticed. Add a GPS and you can track the vehicle in real time. We are doing this with Volvo right now at WirelessCar. (I am responsible for the server side for the U.S. implementation.) Extra bonus: If the accelermoters registers more than 4-5G, you can have it call 112 and report the crash and position with a text-to-voice app. This requires some extra hardware and programming. Tell me if you want a system description of this as well. There are about a million other things you can do if you hook into the ECU and have communication capabilities... Drop me a mail if you are interested. I have done these kind of things for quite a while now... /Magnus Feuer magnus.feuer@wirelesscar.com (Work) magnus.feuer@cox.net (Home. Will be deactivated when I move at the end of September.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Thompson Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 W O W ! (sound of JT 's jaw hitting the deck.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted August 30, 2002 Author Share Posted August 30, 2002 Sound of two jaws hitting the deck.......... Thanks Magnus, it sounds so easy Seriously though, that really is great - I thought that in essence it must be relativly simple and with great scope to send certain commands back to the ECU as well. I'm only surpised that more people haven't done anything about it on this side of the pond. You haven't got any working prototypes, which would work with one of the UK neworks, that you want to sell do you? Red 245bhp Vauxhall powered 21 [Now For Sale] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 *eek*B L I M E Y Do you want any UK beta testers Magnus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnusfeuer Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Erm... I didn't really have any plans to build one, but lets see... $30 for the accelerometer. $79 for the basic stamp. $20 (i guess) for the NiCad battery pack. $70 for a used T28 phone or similar. $15 for the data cable. $50 for boxes, connectors, wiring and other minor stuff. ----------------- $269 hardware cost. + Approx 20 hours of programming and testing. Lets say $500 for the whole thing. Deduct any hardware (like the phone) that you provide yourself. A GSM subscription is provided by the buyer. I run the crappy Ford ECU (which still gives me idling headaches), and need some wiring info on an Emerald, Pectel or whatever you are using. More specifically, is there a signal wire that I can ground to effectively kill the engine? The functionality would be: The unit sends an SMS to a predefined cell phone number (MSISDN) when the vehicle is being moved while ignition is off. The unit sends an SMS to a predefined number when the ignition is turned on. The unit can receive the following two SMS codes. [PIN-code]B (Example: "1234B". B as in block) Kills the engine by grounding the wire mentioned above. [PIN-code]U (Example: "1234U". U as in unblock) Ungrounds the wire mentioned above and lets the engine be started again. The whole thing (less the phone) will be embedded in epoxy and placed in a box. Put the phone on top of the epoxied circuit board, add foam, and put the lid on the box. Run the wires to their correct locations (ignition, engine-kill, +12 and ground). Fasten the box somewhere. Turn off the ignition. Give your car a good shake. Check your mobile phone for messages. Send a block SMS to the vehicle. Try (and hopefully fail) to start the vehicle. Send an unblock SMS to the vehicle. Try (and hopefully succeed) to start to vehicle. Warranties: If the unit is totally unusable either by crappy quaility or faulty thinking when it comes to practical usage, the buyer can return the unit to me and I will send back the money. This warranty is valid for, lets say 30 days. Support given by e-mail and phone (if you like international calls and can count time zones). Please note that this is a prototype that is usable, but not much more. The PIN code and phone number dialled may (or may not, I will check this) be hard coded and not changeable. Do not use the unit below freezing or above 50C (or something like that) since that is what the components are rated for. I am moving during the end of September, so I can start this earliest in mid-October. Even if you have placed an order, I may not have the time to build the units. Since I will demand payment upon delivery only, nobody (but me) runs any risk of being ripped off. Is anyone still interested? /Magnus Feuer magnus.feuer@cox.net magnus.feuer@wirelesscar.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Paul, if your are going to keep sending out postings with a "for sale" signature for your pontoon car... why not admit the price? JH Edited by - John Howe on 30 Aug 2002 21:36:16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Elkin Posted August 31, 2002 Share Posted August 31, 2002 Er, look at Paul's first posting John and you will see that :- [Offers around £16k considered!] Anyway, Magnus, welcome to Blatchat. I look forward to reading your future contributions if this one is anything to go by. Anybody going to take up his offer? Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red SLR Posted August 31, 2002 Share Posted August 31, 2002 This thread has brought all the telecoms bofs out! There are literally 1,000,000 things you can do with a GSM mobile however a lot of it takes quite a lot of hassle and know how that most people dont have access too. It is possible to track a GSM mobile but you will have a hard job getting the service provider to do it for you as special circumstances are usually needed. Any way thats besides the point, you can get the pager systems now no problem, you can also get a GPS tracking system but its expensive. The best solution and most hassle free is Tracker or Trackback. X777CAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnusfeuer Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 Simon, I completely agree. The only time it is worth developing something your self is if it is not already on the market. This often happens when you want a very specific functionality, or you realize that there is a better way of doing something that is already being done. A prototype is often bulky, expensive and has limited usage. But it is fun to build them... /Magnus F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul jacobs Posted September 2, 2002 Author Share Posted September 2, 2002 But, at the moment there doesn't appear to be anything quite like this on the market anywhere. Magnus, many thanks for your kind offer to build a prototype. Can I get back to you in due course. Out of interest, would it be possible to configure it, so that one unit can be reprogammed to ring various numbers and be put into various cars, depending on the one that is most at risk at the time? Red 245bhp Vauxhall powered 21 [Now For Sale, £16k should do it!] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnusfeuer Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 Paul, It should not be a problem to configure telephone numbers and pin codes on a per-car basis. There is an 8K EEPROM available (gross overkill) for $10 that should do the trick. When the unit is delivered it has a PIN code of 0000. Special command SMS can be sent to the car to alter the PIN as well as the phone number to send alert messages to. BTW. If you want to know what is in the future for emergency telematics. Have a look at http://www.itsa.org/itsnews.nsf/$All/E456D41E646724D585256C26006D49C2?OpenDocument We did the server side and telco part of the system. /Magnus F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Den Posted September 18, 2002 Share Posted September 18, 2002 Sort (of!) related.... If you look here and do a search for 'Homeguard'. It's a movement sensor/alarm, but it also calls a programmed phone number (so could be your mobile) should movement be detected and the alarm goes off. Den 😬 - Self portrait - still unable to remove the smile! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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