Lumenition ECU and throttle bodies on 1.6k

[Tim Sture]

My car is a 1.6k superlight with the supersport cams, plus throttle bodies and lumenition ecu. I don’t think it has been very well set up as it has less grunt than a standard supersport engine below 5k revs (according to Clive Kenrick). Maximum power is apparently about 142bhp. Clive cannot do anything with the setup as he does not have the software. He tells me he has a friend who has experience with Emerald setups.

 

Ultimately, I want to have the head fettled and fit new cams (and sundry associated bits) to hike the power to around 180bhp (cost around 2000 per Oily, plus buying Emerald)

 

However, in the short term I cannot afford to do this - have spent plenty on just buying the car (which the lovely Helen described last night as “a bottomless pit” ). So I need some advice as to what to do in the short term. I think my options are probably as follows:

1. buy an Emerald - this will cost around 700 quid (including mapping, but might get something back from selling the Lumenition) which I’d rather not spend at the moment although in the long run it might be the best bet, bearing in mind the long term plans - so might be worth saving up for a few months? I have read that standard 1.6k supersports have been known to give out 150bhp with the only mod being fitting an Emerald. Should I expect that or a bit more, given that I already have throttle bodies? [Extra power would make it easier to justify this option to myself, if not to Helen!]

2. find somewhere (presumably a Lumenition agent) that can achieve a better set up on my car (preferably in the north west);

3. get hold of the Lumenition software (either by buying or borrowing) and hand to Clive Kenrick for him to set up my car

 

Any other options?

[Red SLR]

Tim, there are a couple of good places for lumenition in the North West - John Noble and somewhere up near Lancaster there is a good place - or so I have been told.

 

Will e-mail you off line about it.

 

Simon.

 

X777CAT

[robmar]

Tim - I seem to recall you have the standard exhaust witht he collector inside the engine bay

 

I would suspect that even with an emerald you wouldn't see much improvement over 142

 

maybe look for a 2nd hand race system, no idea of costs I am afarid, my powerspeed system was 450 but that was part of a bulk discount

 

see you at the ladies day

 

rob

[robmar]

oops double post

 

Edited by - robmar on 23 Aug 2002 11:32:56

[murph7355]

First up I'm pretty sure no std Supersport K has produced 150bhp just by a change in the ECU.

 

There have been cars that have shown gains but IIRC this was felt to be more down to a bad MEMS than anything else.

 

They can often be made to run more nicely too, but big hikes need other changes.

 

For your particular dilemma I would be inclined to stick with your current set up, as long as you can find someone with Lumenition expertise who doesn't charge silly prices (I wouldn't acquire software and give it to someone who's never used it - they'll spend a good degree of time learning the vagaries of the different software, probably at your expense).

 

The Emerald set up is "better", if only because there's lots of experience out there with it, lots of free baseline maps and Mr Walker and Karl are thoroughly nice blokes who aren't inclined to rip people off (not casting aspersions on anyone else here, but the engine tuning game is often full of promises and not much delivery against them, with little recourse for financial recompense if things go TU from many stories I've heard). But if you go this route you're 500+ quid down straight away on replacing something (the ECU) that technically shouldn't need replacing.

 

What you really need to do is get a full plot of what your car is doing (power and torque curves) and compare this with a typical Supersport engine. Oily may well have such a comparison graph. Otherwise how do you know that it's genuinely lacking...and more importantly where it's lacking. It could, for example, simply be a matter of timing the cams properly.

 

Note that all Supersports feel a bit limp below 4k-5k revs. They're not really, but the step up above this makes them feel dead below it. Which is why the 6spd box is so nice with them.

 

Was Tim's your old car Simon?

[murph7355]

If your car does have the std exhaust, I'd look to bin that straight away. Exhausts can make a more marked difference on "grunt" than on top end.

 

I think the Caterham stainless race system is about 450-500 too, but a "bespoke" system from someone like BTB might well be about the same money but may look and perform better...

[scooby dooby doo]

just changing from a std ECU to an Emerald (and leaving cams, induction etc std) will give you LOADS more low down. look here for an example on a 1.8K.

 

so with a mappable ECU and TBs you should be getting lots more everywhere.

 

Who did the lumenition install? sounds like it wasn't a great job on the mapping. I'm sure Emerald could map it for you (and then maybe demonstrate the difference an emerald ECU would make...)

 

HOOPY CYCLE WINGS CUCUMBER

[Paul Ranson]

Throttle bodies on an otherwise standard engine isn't (IMO) a 'balanced' combo. It is quite possible that the less grunt below 5000 isn't a symptom of a bad setup, unless it's loads off. Especially if you have the restrictive exhaust setup.

 

Does Clive have a full torque curve for you/us to look at?

 

You could always return to a stock manifold/ECU for a while.

 

Paul

[murph7355]

I don't believe Emerald are touching anything other than their own systems any more. Too much hassle with other people's kit, and too much work of their own on.

 

And wasn't Roy's the one with the garbage MEMs?

 

Still good gains on the engine but not 150bhp...

 

PS And don't forget that's an 1800. It will naturally have a bit more lower down.

 

 

 

Edited by - andy murphy on 23 Aug 2002 11:48:55

[murph7355]

Paul's suggestion of returning to stock isn't a bad idea. Find a friendly rolling road and run a plot of power and torque. At least then you have a proper baseline.

 

You should then use the same rolling road for any subsequent comparative runs.

 

Absolute values should be taken with a bit of a pinch of salt unless other similar cars have been run there. Which is another big advantage with Emerald as they have had lots of 7s there on their rollers for comparison.

[scooby dooby doo]

Andy - i was saying that the Emerald is MILES better than a MEMs especially low down. that Tim has LESS than a standard MEMs setup at low revs suggests the map is DEEPLY wrong....

 

HOOPY CYCLE WINGS CUCUMBER

[murph7355]

I know, but without having some properly evidenced material to see what is actually "wrong" with the car, you might be getting his hopes up somewhat. Along with those of other owners of std Supersport cars - there is definitely scope for good improvements but I doubt even DW etc would want to guarantee improvements on an otherwise std. engine. Could be wrong though.

 

And if Roy's was the one with the relatively duff MEMs setup, it's not necessarily the normal picture that's being painted from his graphs (this is nothing against Emerald at all by the way - they are superb blokes and my next engine will be thus equipped).

 

Besides, it's possible to hash up the programming of any programmable ECU, and his start point is a Lumenition programmable ECU. So expertise input levels being equal the differences between that and an Emerald shouldn't be that vast...

 

Bottom line Tim - you need to get some proper graphs plotted for your engine and compare tham with a std Supersport. Then go from there. I wouldn't spend any further cash until you've done this (which'll please the missus - bottomless pit I ask you).

[Tim Sture]

My suspicions of the setup being a bit off is based on discussions with Rob Margel and others at MIRA/Llandow - to get my car to break traction from a standing start requires 5000rpm and a dropped clutch (that's with cold Bridgestone RE720's), whereas Rob (and others) inform me that (with their standard engines and stickier list 1B tyres) anything over 2500rpm results in wild wheelspin.

 

I make no claims to know what I am talking about , but it seems to me that having throttle bodies should not make the car weedier low down.

 

My observation on the 150bhp was based on the change from MEMS to Emerald reported on a 7s list Emerald day earlier this year.

 

Although returning to stock is theoretically a good idea, it sounds like it might be a good way of getting rid of money.

 

I concur with the suggestion that paying someone to learn the Lumenition software does not seem a good idea. The problem is finding someone who knows it and is reasonably local to me (Preston).

 

Re the exhaust, as my car was factory built (I bought it from Simon) I think I will need to retain a cat for MOT time (first one in a year 🙆🏻). Does that mean I should buy the Caterham "competition with cat" exhaust (which is about £850 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻)?

 

PS - I'll be at Curborough on Sunday - feel free to give me advice there 😬

[Mike Bees]

Don't by a 'competition cat' exhaust, just put your current can exhaust back on for the MOT. It's not that hard and you only have to do it once a year. Plus you keep the cat fresh, I suspect that track/competition use will shorten the cat life pretty significantly.

 

I have a complete Caterham 4-1 competition exhaust kicking around which I could be persuaded to sell...

 

Mike

[Red SLR]

Andy is right, Emerald wont touch other makes of ECU anymore as I was going to get it mapped there myself when I owned the car.

 

I fitted the TBs myself and got Mikeanics in Congleton to map the ECU.

 

It took a bit of jiggery pokery as the ecu sent was blank - even though QED said it was not possible to get a blank ECU. It was definalty blank so the map that it has in there now took quite a while to get too.

 

I suggest that if you want the map fettling go to John Noble as he is known to be ok on them.

 

I always managed to put quite good times in at sprints, I could get wheel spin at about 4000rpm+ from a standing start.

 

Thanks

 

Simon.

 

X777CAT

[Peter Carmichael]

Tim,

 

There are many factory cars that run a cat once a year for MOT. Technically illegal, but it is unenforced. Also, how many miles do you do? Normally the answer to this gives you a clear conscience.

 

The exhaust is the problem. Ask Angus and Tessa.

 

Secondarily, the Supersport cams can benefit from being retimed. ISTR 130thou LATDC for inlet and 110 for exhaust (I need to check) being Oily's recommendation and it has worked very well on engines I have been associated with and can be done by notching the pulleys or offset dowels rather than expensive vernier pulleys.

 

The exhaust change and timing change will require remapping. The problem you have with the Lumenition is not having the software. Even if you are not an expert, retaining the map and being able to have someone else audit it (yes I am offering) is vital as soon as you move away from a standard engine - this is the basis of the Emerald phenomenon. Whatever you have should be properly set up. The MEMS couldn't do this. Looks like Simon set up the Lumenition so it didn't achieve this.

 

No standard Supersports produce 150bhp.

 

 

[Red SLR]

Tim

 

I have spoken to Denaploy and have got the address of the nearest CAL600 dealer to you.

 

Will e-mail it over.

 

Simon.

 

X777CAT

[murph7355]

You need to do a bit of research and find someone who can do a good job on the Lumenition. John Noble has had many good reviews on other items so he'd be a good start point (think he's in Chesterfield, so you could blat over Snake too ).

 

He'll probably be able to do the cams as well.

 

Whoever you go to you must get a "before" plot (did you not get any Simon?), and it would be worth posting it here so people in the know (PC, Oily etc) can look at it. A run on some rollers shouldn't cost much more than 25 quid.

 

As others have said, retain your current exhaust for a quick swap and MOTs are no problem (stupid rule anyway, what makes a factory built car any more poisonous than a home built one to make it need a cat etc). Alternatively find a friendly, probably independent, 7 specialist. You might find they can sort out the paperwork for you without the need to switch all the time...

 

I'd venture that the revs needed to break traction could well be a red herring. I have a bigger K than a Supersport and there are times when even with 4-5k on the clock it simply goes with barely a chirrup. Other times it'll spin its wheels easily. This will have as much to do with tyres, tyre pressures, tyre temps, suspension set up, road surface etc as it will outright power/grunt.

 

Ultimate question is, are you happy with the way it drives? If you are it's possible you could be chasing something that won't necessarily exist on the basis of what a few others have described seemingly subjectively. And this will eventually lead to your bottomless pit suddenly gaining new depths. Trust me, I'm the world's worst!

 

andy@c7consulting.com

[Red SLR]

I did get a plot at the time - finding it could be interesting....

 

I seem to remember 141bhp @ 7800 rpm. Will have a look tonight.

 

 

 

X777CAT

[scooby dooby doo]

Adding TBs could have negative effects at low revs as the speed of the airflow in there will be smaller as the pipes is wider. This could reduce the effectiveness of the air and fuel being mixed. not sure if this is the case in this example though. And the TBs give better response as there isn't aplenum in the way.

 

It certainly applies with porting though - which is why the manufacturers don't produce engines with nice big ports in them. Otherwise the public would complain the car didn't work very well at low revs.

 

Hmmm... >

 

 

 

HOOPY CYCLE WINGS CUCUMBER

[V7 SLR]

Hoopy, allow me to have a crack...

 

According to the bit of engine-technical info I understand (the aforementioned book on Engine Management by Rave T), as the air speed lowers there is a tendency for the fuel to drop out of the airstream, effectively making the mixture weak as it enters the engine. To compensate for this at idle (where the air flow is at its slowest) you simply richen up the mixture a bit.

 

There seems to be no negative effects from doing this except fuel economy, and possibly emmissions although if the engine is firing on a suitable fuel mixture ratio then I don't see how emmisions can be affected... therefore I don't understand why, if true, manufacturers don't produce engines with big ports as you state.

 

My simply enormously ported engine starts and idles fantastically well. I can ram my foot down on the accelerator at 20mph in 6th and the car will pull all the way to Warp. Granted, it gets a bid mad once over 5000rpm.

 

Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours

 

[Tim Sture]

Firstly thanks to everyone for the advice

 

OK so first step is to get a plot for the car as it is - Simon may be able to dig that out, in which case I'll have to work out how to get it somewhere for people to look at (I have Oily's address so can post to him and ask him to forward on to Peter C). Will it be a problem if it was taken on a rolling road that nobody knows?

 

Would it be better in any event to get an up to date plot done, rather than rely on one done for Simon last year? (if he cannot find the plot for that then I'll have to do this anyway)

 

Then, I should buy Mike Bees' competition 4:1 exhaust (how much financial persuasion do you need Mike? answers on a postcard to tim.sture@tenongroup.com!) or buy an equivalent.

 

Then (a) fit the exhaust (b) have the timing changed (should John Noble be able to do that?) and © then have it mapped to suit the exhaust and timing change.

 

(NB - Simon has spoken to Denaploy, who made the ECU which is apparently a CAL 600, and they have recommended WGT Motorsport Development in Northwich as they are familiar with this model - anyone have any personal knowledge of them?)

 

I am not interested in chasing high bhp figures in their own right - I want to keep the car useable for the road as a priority (I already feel fairly paranoid about being done for speeding - saw some more blue flashing lights today - fortunately going the opposite way). I don't want to create some sort of beast that is fast in sprinting but not nicely balanced for road use - most of my use is on the road (3000-4000 pa), but I also want to do a handful of track days and sprint / hillclimb in a local championship in the up to 1700cc class. I don't want to spend enough to win, either in £ or in sacrificing a reasonably friendly, balanced car.

 

I think that's it for now - thanks again for the help.

[Red SLR]

If it was me I would just get it re-mapped.

 

Simon.

 

X777CAT

[V7 SLR]

Firstly it definitely needs a replacement exhaust for the standard 4-1 "inside the engine bay manifold" which is horrible and a crime against all decency.

 

WGT is run/owned by Pip Garner (there may be a "d" in there somewhere, as in Gardner) who is very well renowned as being THE rotary engine specialist. He also knows a lot about all things to do with cars. Nice chap. Met him once. Think you'll do well to go there.

 

Although I don't doubt the accuracy of Simon's plot, unless you go back to the same RR, and find that their system hasn't been recalibrated or anything, then you won't be able to use that plot as an accurate guide to how any changes you make to the engine have affected the plot. My advice would be to go and get your own power curve, but make sure that same RR can map your ECU because you'll be able to directly compare the before and after....

 

Chasing bhp in its own right has no downsides. You don't have to deploy 200bhp just because you have it. Mine is rediculously easy to drive, even at low revs, meaning I don't have to drive like a nutter, risking my licence, every time I take the car out. That said, I do drive like a nutter, but that's because there's a switch in my head which keeps toggling every time I sit in V7.

 

Quite often you don't need to spend much to achieve a better optimised system. For example, if you can get the cams timed correctly then you'll find marginal improvements all through the power/torque curves. It's "money for nothing"... or "power for nothing" anyway. There's a lot of similar improvements you can make to the engine if you're prepared to either have a go yourself or know someone... Not all cost mega bucks. For example, a light fettle to port-match your TBs to your head might be worth looking into if it hasn't been done already. You'd be amazed how different the port sizes are as standard.

 

Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours

 

[murph7355]

The shapes of the curves shouldn't change much from one RR to the next, so Simon's plot might tell you whether there is genuinely anything really wrong with the basics. But Nige's advice should be followed in terms of getting it to a "reference" rolling road that you'll be able to reuse.

 

It would sound like WGT are the place to go.

 

Just getting it remapped could quite easily have you ending up with a different set of "issues". IIRC when the engine was originally done there were several problems, delays and the like with the mapping of it - the posts will still be on Blatchat. Using a slightly more methodical approach is likely to give you better results more quickly (IMO).

 

You never know, the plots might suggest you should leave alone - do you notice any problems in day to day driving? Have you been able to drive a std Supersport for comparison?

 

I would expect both WGT and John Noble to be able to time the cams in. They may, however, want to sell you a set of verniers in the process (these make timing changes easy, but cost 150 quid. Not a necessity but not really a waste of spondoolies either).

 

andy@c7consulting.com