CJS Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Having changed my R400 single plenum to titan roller throttle bodies, the existing water rail fouls the bodies. I've managed a temporary fix, but would like to change it to something a little more solid. I've seen the raceline casting. Is this the best way forward, or are there other suggestions out there? (What is used on the R500 for instance?) Thanks for any views Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 R500 uses a one piece rubber hose whih runs under the roller barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendennis Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 The Raceline Duratec water rail is secured to the engine head and sits above the exhaust primaries, so will not be an issue for your roller barells. It is in my opinion a nice bit of kit, but the plumbing and relevant components need installing correctly as it may give you temperature problems. I have never had temperature problems. The water rail allows a much simpler coolant circuit and you don't need to have a header tank If installed economically you can significantly reduce your plumbing which ultimately means a weight saving and a reduction in coolant content, which is . The water flow outlet will be exhaust side so your need to sweep that across to the top left of the rad. Do you use a heater Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasmaninaseven Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Chris, as Mic says, CC had problems with the water rail mount fracturing and have replaced it with a single hose. What made you go down the roller barrel route and how does the throttle response compare to the standard plenum setup? Neil Build pictures here Guantanamo Bay Orange SUPERLIGHT R400...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 CC had problems with the water rail mount fracturingAnd so did I! CC provided a new one under warranty, but for the time being I've simply ty-wrapped the old rail to keep it in place. Seems to work perfectly. and have replaced it with a single hoseNow that sounds like a better solution. JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJS Posted November 22, 2009 Author Share Posted November 22, 2009 Thanks all; a new straight hose under the throttle bodies sounds like it makes most sense. I like simple. Neil, my R400 engine had a head gasket failure which lead to a seriously warped head. As part of the necessary rebuild I decided to take it to R500 spec which involved a lairy Utimate Performance cylinder head and throttle bodies (and I went for roller ones because I got a good deal from Simon at UP on a 'nearly new' set of Titans). Currently sort out my snagging list so not started up yet, but will let you know how it compares when I do... Thanks again Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskossie Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 On my nearly-complete S3 build (Cosworth Duratec 2.3 dry-sump), I have installed the Raceline water rail. It requires a bit of grinding-off of unused casting lugs on the exhaust side of the head so that the water rail fits tightly (something that Raceline did not mention). Since my head has the coil-on-plug design, the legs at the rear of the Raceline casting that are normally used to support the ignition coil, were use to mount my fuel regulator. I had Radtec make up a high-capacity radiator with the inlet and outlet hose positions swapped side-to-side, to avoid having to cross the top and bottom rad hoses from side to side to reach the radiator from the engine -- a neater solution. Alaskossie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanns Per Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 -------------------------------- The water rail allows a much simpler coolant circuit and you don't need to have a header tank -------------------------------- does it mean that no expansion bottle is needed?? and if so why? thks Hanns Per my CSR 200 with Cosworth roller barrell blatting the alps in a CSR 200 now 220 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendennis Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Alaskossie, there must be variant in heads, mine didn't need anything taken off Do you refer to exhaust primary plate? Hanns, there is no need for an expansion bottle either. The water rail has a swirl pot at the output end, with a 5/16" male pressure relief port which is only used should the pressure relief cap open. From this port a 5/16" hose discharges water into a 1L catch tank, this should be located at low level. Apart from that it is a sealed circuit. This 5/16" hose needs to be routed right down to the bottom of 1L catch tank and always submerged in coolant so no air can be drawn back during t/stat closing. This hose needs to be air tight, very iportant Therefore, (based on Radtec rad) hose from output side (LL) of rad to return side of block. Hose from flow side of water rail to input of rad (HL). There should be an 84c thermostat in the return water housing, incorporating a 25mm bypass connection that connects to rear of the water rail (at the point where water exit the engine). The thermostat remains shut until 84c is reached, thus coolant does not circulate through radiator. Once 84c is reached and the t/stat opens the circuit is in full use. Pressure relief cap needs to be 18-21psig. This circuit needs to be charged completely free of air. It also needs to be air tight and very important that the 5/16" hose cannot draw any air into the system. I always leave about 500ml full in my catch tank. Hope this understood Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset? Edited by - Pendennis on 23 Nov 2009 09:38:11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 If you are using the Raceline water rail, I would not bother with the thermostat fitting in there but instead, use the standard Ford 'stat mounted under the inlets. When my Duratec was first installed, I had constant problems with keeping it at the right temperature, due to the necessity of having a small hole in the base of the thermostat, which is mounted too far away from the head itself. In anything less than hot ambient conditions, the engine would never come up to a decent working temperature. I was aware of this problem from a previous similar Zetec installation in an earlier car I owned, although that never seemed as bad. Once the engine had been Ammo'd, he recommended I revert to the standard thermostat position, even if I wanted to keep the Raceline water rail, and that immediately cured all low or fluctuating temperarture issues I had suffered previously. I did keep the Raceline water rail for 2 reasons:- 1) It made filling and venting the cooling sytem an absolute doddle. 2) It looks cool! All IMHO of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanns Per Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Pendennis I think I understool I thought I could get rid off the expansion bottle but instead I need have to have a overflow bottle. I would stay with the engine thermostate Thks Hanns Per my CSR 200 with Cosworth roller barrell blatting the alps in a CSR 200 now 220 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendennis Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Brent, my description does state for the Ford thermostat be located in it's standard return housing position and not in the water rail as you implied Raceline no longer specify for the thermostat to be positioned in the water rail and have put it back in the engine return I know, many have had issues with the t/stat being located in the water rail, even after they drill some holes in it. Personally, I never had an issue and never had any holes in my t/stat either. Though, now I have the t/stat in the engine water return as standard Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendennis Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Yes Hanns, stay with the engine thermostat Make sure the overflow bottle cannot lose any coolant, make sure it is ALWAYS primed, make sure it is the lowest point of the circuit and make sure the relief hose is ALWAYS fully submerged in coolant (thus hose at bottom of bottle) Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Pendennis, yes I know but I was simply reinforcing what you had suggested with my own experiences of the stat in the Raceline water rail. I have always known this to be a problem and discussed it with Peter many years ago. It was a compromise that never really worked properly and the only reason I reverted when I did was because of convenience, as Ammo was upgrading my engine at the same time. Prior to that I couldn't really be bothered to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskossie Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Pendennis, yes, some of the cast-in lugs and ribs on the head had to be ground flat (above the exhaust primaries) to get the Raceline water rail to fit up against the head. Also, the mounting plates for the exhaust primaries (also from Raceline) had to be trimmed to fit with the water rail. Due to the lack of clearance between the bonnet on the S3 chassis and the taller 2.3 Duratec engine, the fellow who is handling the major part of my build now (Nathan Down, formerly of CC) had to eliminate the Raceline swirl pot/thermostat housing, and fabricate a shorter one that has no thermostat provision, and no removable cap. Alaskossie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendennis Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Alaskossie, that's interesting as I have the new state of the art F1 Raceline exhaust system which does not foul the water rail. Previously, I had the Raceline (cheesmann) exhaust system which also was not an issue. But, from memory the security bolts of the PVC cam cover needed grinding off Doesn't sound like you know that there now is a short dumpy swirl pot housing which with the cap fitted, is flush with their cam cover I have read on the internet forums that there have been many issues regarding fluctuating temperatures whilst installing the t/stat at the outlet end of their water rail. It has always appeared to me, that these problems have been caused by either poor plumbing, incorrect installation, preventation of air ingress and the most important factor - inadequate purging of air during commissioning. FWIW, I have installed one on a Zetec and my own Duratec, neither have ever produced this problem. I have no relationship with Chris or Peter and they have not paid me to write this 😬 Brent, I completely understand all comments regarding drilling of the t/stat Just like to add, that if I allow air to be present within the circuit or allow air to enter under load, this problem WILL exist And trust me, it is very easy to think that you have got all the air out, when you have not. Thats why I leave mine venting over night Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset? Edited by - Pendennis on 23 Nov 2009 19:12:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 I too have the new Raceline large-bore system, their water-rail and their low profile camcover. I've fettled both the water-rail and the exhaust flanges with a die-grinder in order to get a decent fit. The tolerance is very tight. Yep, the expansion tank is swapped for an overflow tank and the thermostat should stay in the OEM housing on the block (Raceline supply a superior 82deg themostat and block-housing which has the added benefit of being a smaller housing than the normal Duratec block-one). As Ian says, there's a shorter tower which fits on the water-rail and matches the camcover for height. Edited to add that my experiences are for a 2.0. The 2.3 being slightly taller, may well need a slightly shorter tower on the water-rail.. Darren E K80 RUM Website and Emerald maps library Edited by - k80rum on 25 Nov 2009 17:42:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendennis Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Hi Darren, doesn't the 2.3 and 2.0 use the same head and is the Raceline cam cover one fits all I couldn't remember if the stat was 82 or 84 *wavey* Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Ian you are correct , one fits all and weighs a ton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendennis Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Thought so Rob Alaskossie, here's a picture of a 2.3L Duracell in an S3 chassis with the Raceline water rail, cam cover and short pressure cap housing http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1367642.htm Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Yep, sorry if my post wasn't clear, I meant that the overall height of the 2.3 being taller, might make a difference with the tower on the water-rail (although I doubt it..) I thought the 2.3 block is slightly taller isn't it? Head of course is exactly the same. Cam cover fits both (and as Rob rightly says, weighs a ton ) Mine's even heavier now because it's been wrinkle-painted by a local chap that does the Ferrari camcovers. Looks nice though, which is of course what's important. Darren E K80 RUM Website and Emerald maps library Edited by - k80rum on 23 Nov 2009 20:16:48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskossie Posted November 23, 2009 Share Posted November 23, 2009 Pendennis, Thanks for the photo. How often does the mechanical rabbit with the drum have to come around to charge up that 300 hp "Duracell"? :<)) The 2.3 Duratec block is a bit taller, of course. With the stock cam cover, the oil filler cap fouls the bonnet on my car. The Raceline cam cover will not work, as my Cosworth Duratec has the coil-on-plug arrangement. Reverie have made me a carbon fiber cam cover for the coil-on-plug setup, and in addition it eliminates the oil filler (don't need it, as I have dry sump). Alaskossie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Pendennis, sorry but the fluctuating temperatures have nothing to do with venting in this application. It is a well known problem that is entirely due to the remote positioning of the thermostat. On starting from cold, the temperature will slowly rise to normal, and then keep on rising above normal until eventually the remote 'stat sees the increased temperature and opens. At this point the 'stat opens, allowing the hot coolant to flow out to the rad and dumping cold coolant straight back into the hot engine, which then closes the 'stat upon reaching it. This cycling and thermal shock continues although less extreme each time, until eventually the engine reaches normal operating temperature - hopefully. Ford sited the thermostat in the cylinder head (Zetec) and side of the block (Duratec) for a reason. In the OE location, the thermostat will sense the temperature right in the engine and operate accordingly. In the (effectively) remote Raceline position, there is a certain amount of very slow flowing or almost stagnant coolant over the length of the water rail and so the 'stat is very slow to react to what is going on in the engine. It sees an increasing temperature mainly by convection from the much hotter coolant upstream near the engine itself. The known fix is to drill a small hole in the 'stat baseplate which allows a small amount of engine temperature coolant to flow across the sensing bulb, enabling it to read what is actually going on within the engine. The downside is that it increases warm up time and, under cold ambient conditions, often prevents the engine from reaching its normal operating temperature at all. I know of several Zetec owners who have experienced this precise phenomenon and, indeed, many Duratec owners. Peter is very well aware of the problem and for years recommended the hole fix but I understand even he has finally accepted this was an unsatisfactory compromise and so now fits the OE Duratec thermostat. Let me just add that I have the greatest of respect for Pete McKeowen and intend no criticism of him by mentioning this. As I say, he is well aware of the problems associated with his water rail when using the thermostat mounted under the pressure cap. Ask him if you don't believe me. 😬 Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 24 Nov 2009 17:09:47 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pendennis Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 Brent, air has everything to do with fluctuating temperatures. Air in any sealed system will cause higher pressures whilst being heated. The thermostat location has no bearing as any coolant on the negative side will be cooler. Take a minute and consider the temperature and pressure of the coolant behind the OE position, it's the same Your explanantion of cold coolant is over dramatic, as there will always be some pre heating occuring via conduction. However, generally as I mention above, any coolant not directly being heated cannot be heated, can it? So there will always be an element of stagnant water on both setups. There is no bleed bypass on the standard Ford setup is there? I have never seen or experienced the remote t/stat completely shutting after it has come up to temperature, it is not the nature of these t/stats to react in such a manner. Ford sited the t/stat in the return port of the engine, because it is after any heat exchange, thus the t/stat can only see/control water entering the engine. This is without doubt the best position for our t/stats, but it is not the cause of your previous problems. The only reason why the remote thermostat does not react quick enough is because it is not fully submerged in coolant. This location is the highest point on the system, so if there is any air in the system (which there will be) this actually prevents the t/stat from heating up in conjunction with the coolant on the positive side of the t/stat. Brent, I am not stating the position of the remote t/stat is ideal, neither am I stating it is the best setup, but I am stating when applicated correctly, it works. Did you use an expansion tank with this setup? And what pressure did your cap relief at? Yes I know there are many that have struggled to get to grips with this system. Personally I think there should of been better assistance with the product. Just for the record, my remote t/stat has no hole in it. I never suffered like you have, but I could create the sympton you describe. Anyway, all this is not relevant now as the system has been revised. Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset? Edited by - Pendennis on 24 Nov 2009 20:33:34 Edited by - Pendennis on 24 Nov 2009 20:35:52 Edited by - Pendennis on 24 Nov 2009 21:09:37 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanns Per Posted November 24, 2009 Share Posted November 24, 2009 I have had some experiences with my setup when I changed the rear water outle. Comparing the 2 systems I see the following main difference: A) The Ford solution alternates between engine and radiator input whereas B) the remote solution is only on and off depending on engine temp received applied on the thermostate. This is why A) is more accurate rgds Hanns Per my CSR 200 with Cosworth roller barrell blatting the alps in a CSR 200 now 220 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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