Winter weekly engine starts.

[anthonym]

So, Minister say "run it for an hour each week".

 

In a trailer that's hard. Anyway, today I couldn't resist and finally took it out up and down the road, got some fuel. Bit of a clean using screenwash and water from a trough.

 

Noticed temp was no more than 47 deg C while in trailer. Finally hit 81 deg C up and down the road. Also of course that exercised the gearbox and everything else. When the snow is here I'll be luck to have 100 yards of tarmac, but I suppose any movement is better than none.

 

In all previous 8 years I have simply put her in the trailer and left her for six months. Like being in a freezer.

 

I am really not very sure about this. 26 engine starts (say 26 weeks). The thing is that my ex camshafts showed evidence of running "dry". But then in 8 years there were only 8 post Winter engine starts... and if I turn it over by hand before starting, maybe the oil will be distributed that way.

 

And another thing. Whether to use extra thin oil for the Winter starts say 0W30 , and change the plugs to ones that do not have to get so hot to clean themselves.

 

And turn up the tick-over so I don't have to hold it with my foot.

 

One things is for sure, 26 one hour sessions, she's going to be very clean by Spring.

 

I am attracted to one of those devices that bring up the oil pressure before starting (turning over) the enigine.

 

Nothing like paying for a full refresh to focus my mind on these matters.

 

Anthony

[Willie.]

Not good to start the engine and run up to "operating termperature" stationary. You really need to take it for a decent drive, otherwise you can get all kinds of nasty acidic condensation building up inside...sitting there for a month or more eating your over priced Minster liners 😬

 

Just my opinion, but I certainly would not be starting the car unless I was taking it for a good drive. Get it a decent rip with everything up to temp to kill the bogie men and condensation, then park it and leave it...or just drive the thing all winter like a real man

 

Willie

[Bricol]

Yep - as discussed on a another thread about a classic Renault 5 - either drive it properly, or do what you've done in the past - leave it well alone.

 

Bri

[JACK FLASH]

I agree, it is better to leave everything cold or go for a decent drive.

 

To preserve the battery, you could put isolation around or even better take it out and put it inside.

 

Jack Flash

[Roger King]

I'd second leaving it unrun unless it gets a decent work out. But it is worth turning the engine 1/4 turn by hand every week. This ensures that some valve springs aren't left compressed for months while others aren't at all.

[Normans_Ghost]

For those that don't realise, Anthony lives in Switzerland. The car is inside a trailer and the trailer is too far from the house to get an electric cable to it. But the most important thing is that the trailer could well be covered in snow. Not a light dusting, but fully covered.

 

I've suggested he takes the car into the living room but he thinks his wife may object

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company

[paul jacobs]

All of which begs the question of why Minister, who one has to assume, know what they are talking about, recomend doing something which goes against every bit of advice ever offered on this subject, for all the very good reasons mentioned?

 

Paul J.

 

[anthonym]

Clearly, you understand why I asked.

"The gods" say run it for an hour every week in the trailer

"The angels" say do not.

 

leaving me, "the faithful", somewhat confused!

 

On a brighter note I asked a Swiss garagist this question today and, bearing in mind they regularly leave cars standing for months on end in the snow (why oh why did I not ask them first!) the answer was "what you need is some redex oil "traitement ceramique" (ceramic treatment) which is designed to coat the cam lobes etc so they do not go fry, I mean dry. I asked him to write down its name and he wrote ceramic treatment and not the name. Have to try again with that one if it is not obvious from google.

 

I am definitely of the opinion that turning the engine over by hand is a good idea, though not thought of the valve springs, maybe that is why two were broken and the rest were not when refreshed. I was hoping that turning over by hand (how does one do that? A spanner(socket) on the nut on the end of the frank? crank.) and in a trailer? I'd have to push it out a bit having first dug it out.. I have a clever plan in place for that involving ropes and tarpaulins - got soaked the first test as all the wet snow landed on my head 😬 To finish the above rambling unfinished sentence, I was hoping turning over by hand would distribute oil over al the bits that need it?

 

Also found a banner Battery supplier nearby, I think the existing "Tudor" battery has done very well since Dec 2006 to now and actually still works ok despite having been frozen year after year and then asked to start the car in Spring without any extra charge. This is its 4th Winter. All I do is pull the cut-out switch; conclude that must truly cut out everything inc the immobiliser.

 

I know this is an FAQ so extra thanks for all your views; I so very much do not want to waste an expensive Minister refresh in one Winter flat.

 

 

Anthony

 

Edited by - anthonym on 12 Nov 2009 16:36:29

[anthonym]

p.s.(specialy for you Willie 😬) I also asked today about putting spiked tyres on so I could go drive on/in the snow and was roundly told to forget it, the car is too light.

 

Anyone from (especially) Scandinavia have anything to say about that?

 

Anthony

 

Edited by - anthonym on 12 Nov 2009 16:33:08

[guilleracing]

NicMac Racing engines have a machine that is connected to the crankshaft that rotates the engine at about one Revolution Per Day. This means the valves never end up staying in the same place and everything is lubricated by a pressurised syslem separate to the engine as installed.

 

If you are not going to this expence, leave well alone.

 

On starting in the new year, drain the oil ( In the new year. ) Fill the top of the engine with oil, check the level on the dip stick and with the plugs out get a good pressure on the gauge.

 

Once you have good oil pressure, put the plugs back in and start the engine.

 

NEVERleave the engine ticking over to warm it up. Run it up to half maximum revs whilst cold and as soon as you have 60 degrees on the engine use more revs.

 

 

Starting and not driving it over the winter just wears the bores out.

 

Good for engine builders, bad for you.

 

I run my seven in the winter with a blank on the rad, so as to get it to warm up quickly and stopwearing the bores out 😶‍🌫️

 

 

 

 

Edited by - guilleracing on 12 Nov 2009 21:19:31

 

Edited by - guilleracing on 13 Nov 2009 07:32:51

[anthonym]

with the plugs out get a good pressure on the gauge.

 

how?

 

edit: I'm guessing with the starter...

 

Anthony

 

Edited by - anthonym on 12 Nov 2009 16:31:01

[TomB]

What about taking the sparks out & wizzing it round on the starter motor to get oil pressure up & everything moved & lubricated?

[guilleracing]

Hi,

 

Yes, you take the plugs out and spin the engine over on the starter.

 

If you are a little worried, spin the engine over for 5 seconds ( Count them.) stop and then repeat the process until you get pressure. If you don't get pressure in 4 attempts, stop, go and make a cuppa and come back to it after ten minutes.

 

To be fair, I have stripped many engines in the past and they are always completely soaking in oil inside even after standing for six months! So, just turning it over on the starter will not hurt.

 

On really expensive racing engines we pre-heat the oil and water every time we start them.

 

You can get engine heater that connect sto the water system on dry break fittings and has a tiny diesel burner like a central heating boiler to warm the coolant.

 

Greg.

 

 

[anthonym]

i read somewhere "turn it by hand, do not use the starter" context being starting after a long period of inactivity.

 

The reason I am so concerned about this (aside from the refresh costs) is that inspection of the camshafts, both the lobes and even more the bits that sit inside shells, indicates (I am told by three who know such things, starting with Minsiter and two others on here who have actually seen them) that my cams have experienced being run while dry.

 

Now that could be:

 

(1) before I owned it, but I believe the 2004 partial refresh would have reported this evidence.

(2) a little bit every year when starting in Spring after 6 months in the freezer (see Norm's post above)

(3) or one year when the car Wintered in the UK and I had following dreadful problems as a result of the damp (duff sensors mainly). However, that year the engine was NOT frozen and might this have been the year it was able to dry out because the viscosity of the oil would NOT have been reduced by the extreme cold, which in all the opther years it would have been; thus allowing the vertical lobes to dry out and the shell bearing surfaces also.

 

That is what is going round in my head.

 

Somewhere here on blatchat is a comment in a very old thread that says he has seen scrapyard engines where the crank is still completely covered in oil after years on the heap. I agree with that, having seen the same myself many years ago - in the days when I could clamber round a scrapyard with my tool box extricating whatever parts I wanted and paying the chap on departure. Great fun :-)

 

However, cannot say the same for cam lobes and cam shell bearing surfaces, and those old engines had lower viscosity oils. Seems to me that our modern high viscosity oils (in terms of liquid's ability to flow) is not our friend when we do not want it to flow, so leaving a part dry.

 

If I put 0W30 oil in it for Winter I would practically have to run it every week because of the 0 meaning higher viscosity at lower temperatures. That begs the question why not put something silly in it, with a dreadful viscosity at low temps (below freezing) so the cold stops it flowing.

 

Then come Spring would be a starting ritual.

 

Having said that it currently has a mix of 15W50 and 5W50 in it (is that then 10W50 )

 

Here's a question, draining three litres from the (dry) sump and sticking it back in the cam cover mean the cams will all be lubricated? If not, does then turning it over by hand then achieve that end?

I am wondering how the cam shells get lubricated if I do not turn it over, since isn't that an interference fit, so oilways will have to be activated?

 

Such are the things I wonder about.

 

There are lots of things I know lots about, but this isn't one of them! 😬 😳

 

Edit: Greg, I was so busy rambling on I forgot to reply to you, except the first line. My normal starting procedure is to let the engine spin twice and release starter button so it does not start, I do this a few times to circulate the oil, and then start - Minister very much liked this description (in this case the guy who actually built the engine and did all the engine work this last time, I watched him doing the shims, patience of a saint.

 

If I had got this right in the past, I would not have just shelled out (pun intended) for two new piper camshafts and followers. Not a pretty sight.

 

Anthony

 

 

Edited by - anthonym on 12 Nov 2009 22:36:53

[guilleracing]

Morning!

 

I am not an engine man per say but, you have to think about the materials involved.

 

The lobes are made out of hardened steel so a bit of wizzing round on the starter to get the oil circulating in spring shouldnt be too taxing.

The cam bearings simply will not dry out to the extent where there is not a drop of oil left.

 

 

My overall thoughts are the warming up thing in winter time is only any good if you give the car a run once a week and get eveything properly hot

 

If you run the car for ten minutes once a week, you will do more harm than good.

 

Greg.

[anthonym]

would run it for an hur and make sure it was hot. However, wisdom above is to drive it, not run it stationary.

 

About that: if it's hot, it's hot, is it not? Moving or not.

Granted new info (above) is that will wear the sleeves un-necessarily.

Why won't that burn off the nasty acids etc? (opposite lock, bricol, jack flash, roger king)

 

Another question is what is "properly hot"? When I did this yesterday (day before now?) it reached only 47 deg C in the trailer, I could not resist so took it out (the roads are clear still) and had a little gentle fun just around here, reached a nice 81 deg C. In mid-Winter on a nice day I'll be lucky to have a 100 metres of snough plowed road. Actually, sometimes it goes as far as the main drag... maybe in the end there will be a compromise of leaving it at rest and whenever/if, the opportunity arises, run it up and down the road a few times.

 

Must say I do not need a lot of persuasion to not run it in the trailer.

 

Anthony

[peterg]

If you run it for only a short while and then stop it, all whilst stationary, then as it cools condensation will form especially in a trailer which will do more harm than good

[anthonym]

hi peter

 

presumably that's why Minister said for one hour.

 

Just in case it's not clear to anyone scanning this thread, there is no question of running it for a short while.

 

The question is about running it for a looong while and achieving operating temperature, such as an hour, while in the trailer. Everyone says

 

 

 

Anthony

[Roger King]

If you do decide to leave it unrun over winter, make sure you remove the cam cover and cover the cam lobes liberally with cam lube before you start it for the first time. Cam lobes are one of the favourites for quick failure when run dry, even for a very brief period.

 

If you do run it, I really wouldn't let it run without load for an hour. It will take much longer to come up to temperature and this is bad for wear rates and bore glazing. On the dyno, we would fire an engine up and put a bit of load on it after only a couple of minutes, even if brand new.

[anthonym]

exactly what I have experienced.

 

edit: and yes, it took ages to get to 47 deg C and wouldn't budge higher until I drove it.

 

and yes, what you have said there is exactly the process that seems to be being suggested. Is taking the cam cover off as painless as it used to be? There are these little MSA tags for a start, though I suppose they mean little for me. Any gasket issues I need to know about?

 

So a question might be, how long before the above procedure becomes wise? A month? Two?

 

and another: what really caused the damage to my previous camshafts? Constant Wintering without starting up or that one Winter in the UK when it was (as a result) not frozen solid for the duration.

 

I work on the basis that it is a bit difficult to have any humidity when sub zero - sometimes we can see the air itself is frozen, so to speak. Starting an engine for the sake of it in such circumstances does even intuitively feel not right.

 

I wonder what cam lube is.. I suppose 3-in-1 won't do?

(presumably it's that stuff that camshafts are covered in on delivery? Anyone any idea the French for cam lube? Preferably something that won't get me arrested? 🤔)

 

oh yes, also presume should put some oil down each cylinder too - someone said somewhere.

And someone else said fill up the rocker covers (I forget the correct term) with oil before starting for the first time, so sounds like "cam cover off and cam lube camshafts" is a more sophisticated version of that?

 

I still wonder how any of that lubricates the interface between the camshaft and the shells that bear it? (don't know the name) - I am thinking there must be oilways involved and hand turning of engine to achieve that?

 

It was my cam shells and cams within that were particularly damaged when finally shown the light of day - the followers were fine and sit here on my desk as expensive mini 😬 coasters

 

Edit: incidentally, the bottom end, crankshaft ("absolutely fine") & conrods & pistons & liners (good until next "full refresh" in 24,000 miles) showed no signs of the Winter freezes they have endured - meaning no signs of having run dry at all, and the top end was refreshed in 2005, although just looking at the bill for that, there's no mention of camshaft parts. New valves and a head skim and collets and tappet shims and cutting valve seats (is that de-coking?). I digress. What is an IAT sensor?

 

Anthony

 

Edited by - anthonym on 13 Nov 2009 18:42:05

[Johnty Lyons]

Cam Lube

😬 😬

 

---

jj

MTM , N.I. L7C AR 🙆🏻

Membership No.3927.

240BHP 1900cc K Series 40th Anniversary

 

[anthonym]

duly enquired, thanks.

 

Anthony

[Roger King]

This is a K isn't it?

 

They don't have cam shells. The cams run directly in the parent metal of the cam carrier casting as do all modern engines (I stand to be corrected on this by the way, having been out to the engine business for a few years).

 

[anthonym]

yes 'tis.

 

edit2 just struck me, the small shells I saw lying around must have been the little end shells. Please don't tell me there's no such thing as those any more either - or even that there never was. My memory does play tricks I find.

 

video of the Winter damage available shortly (it's uploading) .. since I have nothing better to do..

edit:

that's the link, but as I say it's still uploading as at 1410 uk time.

 

Anthony

 

Edited by - anthonym on 14 Nov 2009 14:11:04

 

Edited by - anthonym on 14 Nov 2009 14:13:05

[anthonym]

 

Anthony