SteveP Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 Having owned a 1700 xflow now for just over a year, upgrade-itis has bitten (i.e. more power) just as everyone has said it would on this forum. Upgrading the xflow is not a cost effective exercise as the current car is great and I'm sure someone will want it as it is. Besides I feel a K-Series car is the best next step. I'm now probably looking at a Superlight (or possibly Superlight R, funds permitting) as the next motor and wondered just how important a dry sump is. Yes for peace of mind, but 2nd hand dry sumped cars seem few and far between. Main use will be road but with a fair bit of sprinting and hill climbing, plus some track days which I have so far shied (shy-ed?) away from in fear of oil surge blowing the engine. Does a dry sump carry any additional headaches in terms of maintenance over a wet sump equivalent? In reality does say a Superlight (or R) on sticky tyres (or List 1A for that matter) produce enough oil surge to worry the engine? I guess it probably does, but I'd like to hear opinions as dry sumping an exisiting wet sump car is expensive. Thanks SteveP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 Most Superlight Rs will have dry sumps. A 1.6 Supersport fitted to a Superlight will be fine as long as it has an Apollo tank air/oil separator fitted. *thumbup*253 bhp, up and running *thumbup*New boingy bits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 At which level of use does a dry sump become a neccessity over an apollo for a 1.6KSS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 I'd suggest if you start running slicks that you ought to consider a ds. I'd also seriously consider it for anything with 180bhp+ish, if only because you're likely to have thrown some wedge at the engine to get this far and it'd be a mite upsetting if it went pop through lack of oil going round right handers! Key thing is to keep monitoring your pressure, particular through said corners. If it ever drops dramatically (2bar for any preiod under load - but really depends on your gauge so make sure you know what "normal" is on your set up and look for significant deviation from that), consider getting a DS as you're probably piloting the car quick enough to cause surge. A Pace dry sump is up and running for the K and *should* cost around the 1k-1200 mark. Which is a healthy bit cheaper than the Caterham version. It's not yet in fianl production form though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 It's less about engine power and more about tyres and you mode of use of the car. A K is quite susceptable to oil surge owing to it's fore/aft location when compared to it's transverse design. This leads to aeration at the thin end and finally starvation and the thick end of the wedge. How much of each depends on tyres and mode of use. SLR's came with ACB10's as standard (read: very sticky) so if you were on a dry track and were exploiting those tyres you would almost certainly experience the very worst of oil starvation, i.e. grenaded engine. To overcome this, only a dry sump will do. For less sticky tyres or damp/wet (or no) trackdays your biggest problem may be only oil aeration leading to rattley tappets. Not an immediately catastrophic event, and can be overcome with an Apollo tank. I am a strong advocate of the dry sump system. It's a fit and forget system. The only problem with it as far as I have experienced is the fact that the oil pressure is soooo steady, no matter your mode of use, that you end up forgetting that there is an oil pressure gauge fitted to your dash. With this in mind I'm fitting a low pressure warning light. I don't expect it'll ever come on. If you can't find an SLR with an dry sump fitted (Peter's right, many SLR's were fitted with one from the beginning but it's a constant source of amazement to me that so many were not) then do not despair. There is (will be) an alternative to Caterham's £1700 after-market priced dry sump system which is currently being finalised for production by PACE. This looks to be a good solution, offering some good and bad points over the Caterham installation, but importantly at around only £1000. I expect take-up of this system to be quite massive as it is a very well engineered solution at a very competitive price. Andy Murphy is trialling the prototype for PACE at the moment and is due to report back to them any time now, at which time PACE will ready it for sale. With regards to maintenance, the Caterham dry sump actually make servicing easier for a number of reasons, 2 of which listed here: 1. A wet sump is not entirely easy to determine the oil level. With the dry sump you know it is slightly over 4.5 litres in total so you partially overfill it and use. Any excess is left in your oil catch tank over the course of 20 or so miles. Simply empty the catch tank and measure the amount, deducting that amount from the next fill-up. 2. A wet sump has a foam baffle in the sump pan, to help prevent windage (I think). This needs to be replaced every so often and has been known to disintegrate. Some people think it is more likely to disintegrate if Mobil 1 oil is used, which if true is a pity as most K owners accept this oil as the best you can put into the engine. I have quite strong positive views on dry sumping over the Apollo system (an others), and am not deterred by the cost but this is all down to individual priorities. I can explain more if you want to email me direct. Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 The Mobil One foam baffle thing is a rumour and nothing more. Foam baffles do break up if they are left in the sump for all time, but the mode of failure can occur with any oil. It is mostly to do with temperature and exposure to condensed combustion nasties. Isn't it funny how that rumour took hold so readily and yet people aren't wondering where they can get a different brand of foam. No. They consider changing their oil when the chances are the problem will recur. The Apollo tank has been proven to protect Supersport engines adequately from the ill effects of surge. V7 is hinting in slightly the wrong direction with the rattly tappets symptom - yes you do get rattly tappets on a supersport without an Apollo tank, but of *much more concern* is that the same air is going through your bearings. You don't fit the Apollo tank to fix the rattly tappets. You fix it to stop the bottom end going pop. You know it is working because you don't get rattly tappets any more. To such ends, the Apollo tank is a good solution. It increases the oil capacity. It doesn't prevent surge, but it prevents the surge from having catastrophic effects. It has no moving parts and is unlikely to go wrong. The last thing to mention is the Accusump, which IMO is a complete waste of time, money and weight. It is to all intents ineffective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 I agree an Apollo will work for road tyres 021's, 032's on track. I dry sumped my VX, best thing I've done on it this year (most expensive too). I do run slicks. 7" at the moment but will go to 9" rears and 7" fronts. The rock steady oil pressure and never having an aerated camfollower problem after a hard race have helped me worry less about the engine and press on more. I removed the extended passenger footwell and put a proper bigish tank in. Avoided an engine out for the bellhousing jobbie mid season. It was all pretty easy to fit. There are some pics on the first link under more links and my technical mods. On the subject of foam baffles I agree with Peter. Time and combustion nasties will breakdown the foam. James Whiting (who's seen more foam baffles than any of us) did reckon that changing oil from synth to mineral and so on might have caused break up. Perhaps coupled with age etc... Steve My racing pics here Hants (North) and Berkshire area club site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 For the engineers out there - is there potential for a cheaper solution / improvement over standard in the form a redesigned pick up pipe(s)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 Baffling is the way to fix the problem but you need a deeper sump than the 7 allows to achieve this properly. Baffling stops the oil sloshing about. As does the foam. Even with a deeper sump and baffling, at over 1g corning I think you run in to trouble. Steve My racing pics here Hants (North) and Berkshire area club site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 The problem is probably insurmountable with trapdoors and the like because the Caterham cast sump is so much shallower than the original. ISTR some sort of valved pickup arrangement in a BMW, which switched from a front pickup to a rear one when under acceleration, or something of that type. Depends on how confident you are that the valve will always open and never fail. I like to keep my oil system simple. *thumbup*253 bhp, up and running *thumbup*New boingy bits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V7 SLR Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 Agree with all that's written... and forgot to stress that aerated oil is knackering to bearings. Well spotted. Important thing about a dry sump is this... How much is your engine worth? Apparently, if you believe some of the stories, my Minster-built VHPD engine would cost about 8 grand to replace forgetting the additional head work @ £priceless and the other "improvements" for a minute. Add one (circa) £1000 dry sump system (price if fitted from new in late 1999) and the "fit and forget" nature virtually guarantees the longevitiy of that 8+ grand engine. The same ethic applies to oil changes every 3000 miles (at least) at about 35 quid a pop of Mobil 1. It isn't worth worrying whether you can get it 5 quid cheaper elsewhere or whether other oil does a similar job for slightly less. Mobil 1 works and is considerably cheaper than a kernackered engine. Do you want a proper solution or do you want to gamble with other solutions? Yer pays yer money.... Steve, 9" rear slicks? Wow. Bet you get some serious cornering. Wow again. Worcs L7 club joint AO.//Membership No. 4379//Azure Blue SLR No. 0077//Se7ens List Tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 The Mobul 1 thing is not a rumour - I've experienced it. I suspect however that it may be more to do with changing oil to Mobil 1 from another with the same foam baffle in place. Mobil 1 buggered my baffle in 4 months from new over 2000 miles. Fine if you like egg noodles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted August 2, 2002 Share Posted August 2, 2002 I hope so Nigel... All the other guys run them. Steve My racing pics here Hants (North) and Berkshire area club site here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Brown Posted August 13, 2002 Share Posted August 13, 2002 The Mobil 1 thing may have struck again. It's been suggested to me by Caterham Midlands that similar breakdown in my baffle could be due to Mobil's finest. It's been used from new, so who knows? Anyone got a contact at Mobil to quiz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted August 14, 2002 Share Posted August 14, 2002 I'm baffled at this i have 15k miles on my k all on Mobil 1 and i've had sump off 4 times foam baffle is perfect. so what's wrong with the rest of you???? jj N.I. L7C AO. Membership No.3927. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murph7355 Posted August 14, 2002 Share Posted August 14, 2002 Mine only ever had Mobil 1 and it was always OK too. Are you sure they weren't using egg thread noodles instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted August 14, 2002 Share Posted August 14, 2002 I stir fried mine with Uncle Bens - Tasted awful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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