What's up with my starter?

[Shad]

I have a click from the relay and 12.5v from the relay to the solenoid, but no movement from the solenoid and no spinning from the starter. I've checked the connections inside for the solenoid and all looks good. It's a Brise starter with internal solenoid.

 

Is it kaput or is there anything else I can check?

 

Simon

niknak.org

[Normans_Ghost]

Simon, have you opened the starter. I had a wire (better described as a small bar) come adrift in mine. Took it apart, soldered it back and it's been fine ever since.

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited

[Shad]

Yes, have opened the back and checked everything I can. I had one of the connections break a while back and that one's still fine, and as far as I can tell everything is connected properly. I also cleaned and re-greased all the moving parts and cleaned up the copper contacts.

 

I might have another look though... nothing to lose really.

 

Is it possible to take the whole thing apart? I couldn't see an easy way to extract the solenoid or motor from the casing.

 

Simon

niknak.org

[Shad]

Double checked everything, continuity in all the right places but no joy ☹️

 

Simon

niknak.org

[Stationary M25 Traveller]

Have you checked the earths on the engine and the chassis. Undo each end of each wire and check for bright metal. If corroded, scrape clean and re-bolt.

 

 

[Mick Day]

Do the lights work? If not you have an earthing problem, best to check your engine earths etc anyway.

 

Next: make up a flylead about 2 metres in length. Use some thickish wire & if you don't have any double up some thinish wire. Fit a female lucar connector to one end; remove the solenoid wire at the starter & connect the flylead to the solenoid. Touch the other end to +ve of the battery. Starter should now engage (make sure in neutral!). If the starter doesn't operate there is something amiss inside the starter.

[Shad]

Thanks Mick, that sounds like a really good idea so I'll try that tonight. The earths seem ok, all the other electrics (e.g. lights) are still working properly.

 

Simon

niknak.org

[Normans_Ghost]

Yes, of course the starer can be fully dismantled but you'll have to cut a thick copper wire which is "arc" welded so cannot be de soldered. I re-welded this wire (rather than solder) If you havent got a welder to hand it may not be a good idea to do this. It's a bit fiddly and, to be honest, without doing it again I couldn't describe it in detail.

 

Micks idea is good but the same result is acheived by measuring the voltage at the solonid wire and comparing it with the voltage across the battery (with no load). They should be the same or at worst no more than 0.1v different (the solonoid will be lower).

 

Sound to me like you may have over 1.0v difference but I'm surprised that you anly get a click even with thuis difference. In this case then use Micks idea and if the starter works then splice in (using male and female lucar connectors) a new solonoid wire.

 

Assuming you have a K series the joint should be at the bulkhead where the solonoid wire gous into the main loom. Leave about 4" sticking out the loom, cut the wire crimp a female connector on and then run the new wire behind the starter (to protect from the exhaust heat) to the solonoid. This wire will have male lucar connectors at both ends.

 

If you need the wire and some connectors email me your address and I'll pop some in the post.

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited

[anthony1956]

starter motor rebuild here

 

this was my starter motor in case that's not clear and I wrote the story took the pics.

 

Anthony

 

Edited by - anthonym on 25 Aug 2009 11:31:07

[Normans_Ghost]

Anthony, different starter but similar method to strip.

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited

[Shad]

Checked everything again this evening. 12.5v in the battery and 12.5v to the solenoid when the button is pressed and the relay clicks to engage. Tried hooking the solenoid directly to the positive terminal but that did nothing.

 

☹️

 

Aquired a replacement starter but managed to drop it and now it rattles and doesn't work! Not my lucky day it would seem. Hopefully Brise can refurb them both for less than the cost of a new one.

 

In the meantime... any bright ideas for mechanically starting the car without relying on a push? Need a handle poking out from the nose for a manual start

 

Simon

niknak.org

[Shad]

The story continues today when I refitted my repaired starter (couple of broken wires to do with the coil on the solenoid apparently). All was good, turned the engine over nicely so put everything back and went for a (very enjoyable) blat.

 

Got back and that's when the fun and games began. I'm really, really hoping it's heat related somehow but let me describe what happens now.

 

Press the start button and everything works as expected and the engine turns over for a split second. Then the engine stops turning over and all you can hear is the starter motor spinning. No grinding or anything, just the whirring.

 

Any thoughts? The motor doesn't get any power without the solenoid working fully. Not sure on the mechanism behind the gear moving forwards to meet the flywheel - possibly spring loaded, possibly a broken spring? Possibly somehow heat related? Going to try it again in the morning when it's cold...

 

 

Simon

niknak.org

[Alex Wong1697456877]

On mine (Ark racing starter) the gear on the starter motor has a circlip and spring behind it. Basically as it fires forwards, the spring softens the impact on the flywheel until it has engaged. If the circlip is damaged, you get a click as the gear fires forwards then it just spins as it doesnt engage the flywheel. maybe occasionally it'll engage. To check it, pull the gear out then grab the spindle with some pliers (be careful not to score the spindle) then see if the gear cam move forwards and backwards.

[Normans_Ghost]

Alex, it's difficult to imagine yours as described. On the Brize the solonoid is energised and the the magnet moves a sleeve along the cylinder which engages the pinion in the ring gear. Then the contacts meet and the starter is energized to turn.

 

Sounds like a fault in the engaging mechanism. The "split second" is probably the pinion hitting the ring gear but not engaging.

 

My advice is to remove the unit and return it whence it was repaired. If you have a set of jump leads and a vice to hold the starter you can test it by running the black lead from the earth (-) to the starter body and the red lead from the + side to the large solonoid wire. The starter should spin. Then connect the red lead to the small solonoid wire and the pinion should slide towards where the ring gear would be. To test the whole lot leave the red lead connected to the large terminl and then run a wire from that to the small terminal. The pinion should slide back and then the motor should turn. It happens quickly but not that quick that you can't see both operations taking place.

 

^{Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here}

You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited

[Shad]

Now sorted, touch wood 😬

 

Still didn't work this morning so I took the back off and a tiny wire from the solenoid coil that was sort of pressed into the main body of the solenoid, had come off. I went back to the starter motor man and apparently it's an earth, although we weren't entirely sure it was causing the problem. Nonetheless, said wire is now attached properly again and so far it's all been behaving itself

 

Thanks for everyone's input!

 

Simon

niknak.org