Big Brother Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 OK guys (and gals), your advice is needed. I am currently in the process of planning next years upgrades On the engine front I have two choices... 1, Rip out my crossflow and throw forged pistons and a 244 cam at it. OR 2, Rip out my crossflow and replace it with a Zetec. The crossflow mods are pretty straight forward and I have built a couple of engines before so kind of know what to expect. The Zetec is a different kettle of fish entirely (for me anyway..16v etc) Also as I love my crossflow, the only way I will swap to a Zetec is the promise of CHEAP power 😬 I gather from most of the posts here that a standard 2.0l Zetec will give around 160ish bhp running on twin 40's. I am not sure if this figure is gained by swapping the cams first. What need to happen to get it to 190-200bhp? Some posts point to the botton end and pistons being pretty much bombproof. Is this the case or does it need beefing up? Also, assuming that I use my existing carbs (40's), what will the maximum power i can expect to see before I need to swap to 45's. One last question (for now ) Is it possible to modify my existing crossflow 4 into 1 exhaust manifold to mate with a Zetec head, If so, does anybody make a conversion kit for this? ADVthanksANCE PS Phil W - Please can you mail me your costings S/Sheet Steve www.Se7en-Up.co.uk id=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Steve, if my purchase comes of, i could sell you a nice x-flow circa 180-210bhp if you are interested! C7 PWT X-Flow all Steel Life begins at 40(00rpm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Jones Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Sorry for the impending bad English and spelling My 1800 Zetec produces 162 bhp with 40 though off the head and the valves cleanded up with 130/2lit cams with the same engine and 105/standard cams i had 6bhp less at the same rpm and 12 bhp overall on 45s but 40 should do ok I used 36 chokes and 50/52 jets in my 45s I got a pre 95 escort engine from the scrapies for 175.00 and spent about 400.00 on it to have a rebore +0.5mm new pistons AE, OE spec, new bearing, new bolts, new rob bolts ARP ones, gaskets etc. as you do not need an old engine you can pick a newer engine and avoid the rebuild just do the rod bolts and a Dunnell sump 200.00 ish if you get a mondao engine you need to change the water punp to an escort type also unless you want the extra hassel do NOT get a focus engine it will work and fit but more work and hassel for the same gain I have seen 1800/2000 Zetecs in the breakers around here for 250/350 pounds so you need a new exhaust manifold, a change to the plumbing, rolling road, sump mods 1800 flywheel which ever size to use lightened by Dunnell if cash allows I have used a Mondeo clutch and its almost done I have all the ford part numbers for a Zetec to T9 if you want them or they are posted on the dark side on theWestfield board room just search Zetec as i posted them on there as well. E-mail me and I can give you my phone number if its easier. Paul. See My Car Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted July 24, 2002 Author Share Posted July 24, 2002 Thanks for the offer Peter, but I think an all steel X-flow may eat into my planned budget a little... (well probably all of it! ) You are more than welcome to mail me direct if you want to discuss pricing off-line. Paul, Interesting that on 40's, the cam swap only gained you a further 6bhp. I guess if I go the Zetec route I will end up rebuilding an old engine in an attempt to keep costs down and learn a bit about the engine. Steve www.Se7en-Up.co.uk id=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Steve, what kind of budget are you thinking of? you can get a reasonable amount of power from your x-flow, without the aggro of fitting a zetec engine,Roger King has many power upgrades for the ageing unit, also the noise a x-flow makes is not something that the zetec can re-produce! C7 PWT X-Flow all Steel Life begins at 40(00rpm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal mickey Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Go for the Zetec. you'll need exhaust primaries, inlet manifold, modified sump, engine mountings, coolant pipes and an ecu. the 1.8 flywheel is prefered as its lighter and you should be able to reuse the starter and alternator. A standard 2.0 ltr should give @155/160 bhp. The clutch you'd need depends on your gearbox splines. Mike. p.s James whiting and raceline parts are good, can't comment on Dunnel as I haven't used any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted July 24, 2002 Author Share Posted July 24, 2002 Peter / Mike Your posts highlight my dilema... "you'll need exhaust primaries, inlet manifold, modified sump, engine mountings, coolant pipes and an ecu." For the cost of the above and a replacement Zetec engine, you can do a lot with a crossflow. One of my concerns is that my crossflow is a 1700cc on a 711M block. I'm not sure how to proceed ie with forged pistons. Will the block take an additional rebore? Will it need lining? Will I need a new block? Steve www.Se7en-Up.co.uk id=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Steve, your current block will take a rebore easily to 84-885mm,therefore being able to fit a good set of forged pistons. this is a good starting point to more power, and a more reliable engine. C7 PWT X-Flow all Steel Life begins at 40(00rpm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GasMan Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Steve Go for the zetec. I initially put 45's on a standard engine with Dunnell 3D ECU Manifold and Exhaust and got 165BHP and bomb proof. The good news doesn't stop there. The spread of power is great, It doesn't weigh much more than a crossflow (I took a crossflow out of mine) is a very easy fit and drives beatifully. Yes it is a bit quieter but that's only on standard cams. Later put some new cams in and the induction noise of the cross flow all comes back. Also if my upgrade to injection comes off I'll be selling twin 45's a Dunnell ECU and Loom and Paul Dunnell will remap the ECU FOC to suit if I go his route. Remember with a Zetec your only just starting! Cheers Gasman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted July 24, 2002 Author Share Posted July 24, 2002 Peter, that music to my ears! Rebore to 84mm and fit a set of Accralite forged pistons. What else would you recommend..... 244/255 cam? Lighter flywheel? Better (Cosworth) big end bolts? Steve www.Se7en-Up.co.uk id=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted July 24, 2002 Author Share Posted July 24, 2002 Gasman, Now your getting me all confused again! Zetec...Crossflow....Zetec...Crossflow....Zetec...Crossflow....Zetec...Crossflow....Zetec... Crossflow....Zetec...Crossflow....Zetec...Crossflow....Zetec...Crossflow....Zetec... Crossflow....????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 😬 Steve Edited by - steve motts on 24 Jul 2002 23:57:23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted July 24, 2002 Share Posted July 24, 2002 Steve. either a 244 or a 254 cam, lightend and balnnced crank and rods, a good gas flowed head, a nice light flywheel (but not too light, otherwise you wil have to go for a steel unit) uprated vavle gear, and to make it really tractable and fuel effecient a 3 d mappable unit as well. This kind of set up will give you a nice reliable engine with scope to upgrade at a later date if need be! C7 PWT X-Flow all Steel Life begins at 40(00rpm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonycaterham Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Steve, Go for the Zetec, like Gasman I have std 2 litre zetec on 45's with Weber Alpha management system recently dyno'd at 165BHP at flywheel. with cams and some good gas flowing on the head should mean a reliable 200bhp with bucket loads of torque, no oil leaks and good for many thousands of miles!!! Just do it! Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMO Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Steve Ask yourself one question. Are you ever going to need or want more than 180 bhp? If the answer is yes go Zetec. AMMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaters Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Steve, fancy a run out in my car tonight if the weather holds? Completely standard cams running on 40's I think it makes the 160 claimed (if I quote the @ wheels we'll just get that old argument again!) Paul Turner has pretty much the same set-up but with 45's and mild cams and has 180'ish (bit over I think from memory). As Ammo says, going for the Zetec doesn't limit you in the future to the same degree as the x/flow, but will probably turn out to be slightly more expensive. I have mailed you my costing sheet, if you bring it along tonight I can go though what you will and won't need, etc.... Phil Waters Zetec is in and running Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bafty Crastard Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Personnally if you have a good Crossflow engined Seven I would stick with that, assuming your happy with it Can't help thinking in a few years good original examples will be highly short after Edited by - Bafty Crastard on 25 Jul 2002 08:27:55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Turner Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Steve I went through this last year, had a steel 1800 x-flow in the car for 8 years that had been both reasonably cheap to build (using mostly second hand parts) and bullet proof but with a 254 cam and 175 ish hp was not the most pleasant car on the road. Changed the cam to a milder rally cam and it was more pleasant but still no super sprint. Thus decided to fit the Zetec with the Kent FZ2002 cams, 45's and Weber Alpha ECU, expected 180 hp and got a corrected 179.5 @ the flywheel, it has totally transformed the car on the road, and my times at Curborough have slightly improved, not bad for an engine that cost £150. As several people have said before at this level of tune you are only just starting with a Zetec, a x-flow is almost at its limit and reliability will start to be compromised. If you are going to be happy for ever with 150hp the x-flow route with forged pistons and a 244 cam will be cheaper as the bits to fit the Zetec all add up to a fair sized bill. Having had both I know where my vote goes. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Steve, You just know which one I'm going to say, although no doubt the venerable Mr King will be able to whet your appetite tonight for a X/Flow makeover !!!!!!!!!!! See you tonight. Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevefoster Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 What would you get if you gave Roger a Zetec and the dosh that it would cost to make a proper 155bhp XF I wonder? We can ask him... The Zetec expense seems to be all the custom bits you need to buy to get it to fit eh Phil... Steve My racing pics hereid=red> Hants (North) and Berkshire area club site hereid=red> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted July 25, 2002 Author Share Posted July 25, 2002 Paul, When you fitted the Zetec, what was done to the engine (apart from the cam swap). Was the bottom end kept standard? Also, what power losses would you expect to see if I followed your example but stayed with 40's? Steve www.Se7en-Up.co.uk id=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Steve, Mine was 'rolling roaded' (is that the right description) at 192 Bhp on a standard bottom end and using 40's. On my next upgrade to hopefully around 220, I am looking at stronger big end bolts, solid valve lifters + TB's. Beyond that (according to Raceline) will be pushing my luck, big time, on an otherwise standard bottom end. As Steve F. has said it will be interesting to ask Roger what he can do with a Zetec. Brent 😬 Edited by - BRENT CHISWICK on 25 Jul 2002 10:10:18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul D Jones Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 If Iam the right Paul Look at my car link below W"hat I did not in order just as I remember Dunnell sump a must ARP rod bolts a must from race line cheaper then Dunnell same thing Dunnell lightened cast flywheel [you use a dohc seirra starter] Mondao clutch and a QH133 release bearing my engine bores where worn so overbored 0.5mm new bearings and bolts but it is cheaper to hand it over the counter at a ford dealer then rebuild it yourself if yiu get some discount about 350+vat exchange I used AE OE spec bearings and pistons I had the crank flywheel rods pins and pistons balanced Removed 40 thou off the head and cleaned the valves up new valve stem seals 1.50 each Cleaned the tappets as these are about 15.00 each X 16 The 105 cams timed as per the book with the flat bar in cams gave 155 bhp the cam swap gave 162 bhp but lifted the revs and peak power a litle and lost a little torque the 6bhp gain was at the same piont ref the revs so it now revs higher and I think its better Fitted a spigot bearing cut and shortened the T9 release arm I used hoses and a header tank some use the race line water rail more money and some say trouble some Does that make thing any worse better. Paul. See My Car Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Brother Posted July 25, 2002 Author Share Posted July 25, 2002 Cheers Brent, Out of interest, what's the spec of your engine?....cams/head etc Hmmm....190bhp on twin 40's , sounds good to me! Steve www.Se7en-Up.co.uk id=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Steve, Kent cams, can't remember the spec. but will look at the paperwork and tell you tonight + some trick porting work. You also have the advantage of the Ford English axle already which is just crying out for more power to channel through it! In that spec. goes like the proverbial **** off a shovel. Brent Edited by - BRENT CHISWICK on 25 Jul 2002 10:59:51 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philwaters Posted July 25, 2002 Share Posted July 25, 2002 Brent, you could try pushing the sale of your Webra Alpha ignition... Steve will need that... Phil Waters Zetec is in and running Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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