Duratec (re)build advice please

[CJS]

Well, I managed a huge 3 months of use and 2000km from my self-built Duratec powered R400 before it died. The head gasket went big time without warning, warping the head beyond use and leaving the block requiring a re-bore. As I used the car on the track, Caterham and my local distributor (I am in the UAE) have informed me that I don't have the benefit of any warranty. Leaving aside for now the baggage involved in that and the contents of ongoing discussions, I'm now having to look at getting the car back on the road. It seems that I have the following options:

 

- pick up a donor engine, and rebuild it to the original R400 spec (ie more or less transferring what I've got in pieces now)

- pick up a donor engine, and rebuild it but to say R500 or similar spec

- buy a new engine from Raceco or Raceline etc (with probably 250-270bhp)

 

I've not built an engine before but keen and willing to give it a go and have access to those that have and who can assist on the tricky bits.

 

I've investigated costs of a new engine, and I'm keen to avoid those sorts of costs given how much I have spent so recently buying the car in the first place. But would it work out a lot cheaper if I bought in the bits I needed for a rebuild (to R400 or R500 spec)? Is a 250-270 bhp 2.0l Duratec engine-build a little enthusiastic for novice engine-builder (albeit one that's keen and prepared to take his time)?

 

Almost out of energy on this matter, so any and all advice very welcome.

 

Thanks

 

Chris

[Pendennis]

Building back the engine to your spec is not a problem and is not rocket science

 

By the sounds of it, your need a new head. Obviously the ancillaries can be used as can the block and crank. Not 100% sure, but are the rods and pistons forged on the C400? A standard crank would suffice.

 

A real 270bhp out of a 2L Duratec will take some doing. Your probably need a CNC high flow head which cost a few quid, not convinced that 'real' power can be gained from any other form of ported head. Cams will need to be timed correctly, but I am sure you can achieve that. Injectors and fuel regulator possibly may need changing. The only other issue is induction, is the exsiting roller barrel jobby upto that spec.

 

A real 250bhp spec maybe achievable with the roller barrels and exhaust you already have and that trust me makes a very quick 7.

 

So yes, get stuck in

 

Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset?

[Doug phillips]

As I used the car on the track, Caterham and my local distributor (I am in the UAE) have informed me that I don't have the benefit of any warranty.

 

 

 

 

Can I use my Caterham on track?

 

Absolutely. All Caterham Sevens are suitable for use on the track and give great performance straight ‘out of the box.’ However we advise that cars used regularly on track are equipped with additional safety equipment such as fire extinguisher, uprated FIA roll bar and 4-point harnesses. The minimum level of equipment required depends on your track day organiser.

---

I think I would be having a few words .

 

Su77on Se7ener

 

 

Edited by - Doug Phillips on 17 Jul 2009 21:24:23

[Mick Day]

Before rebuilding you really need a diagnosis. What caused the engine to go bang in the 1st place?

[AMMO]

Graph of 2 litre engine with hand ported cylinder head.

 

here

 

This engine is currently being raced and is coming back this winter to have more work to take it over 300 bhp. It will not be having a CNC head. I have some ideas for that particular head I would like to try out.

 

This one here has also been nowhere near a CNC machine

 

Just wanted to point that out that CNC is not essential on a Duratec. Other engines where a lot of material has to be removed then CNC is a very valuable tool.

 

Edited to say that Mick has a good point. Duratecs are not known for popping head gaskets.

 

 

Ammo

Raceco.com

 

Edited by - AMMO on 18 Jul 2009 08:58:08

[CJS]

Thanks for responses to date.

 

Doug - believe me words have been had. Lots of them over the last 2 months. No cigar though. I've been offered a second hand head, and a discount on a replacement engine and workshop rates (for the rebuild). Other than that; nothing. I'm considering 'further action' but as a lawyer I know how much additional grief this can cause (to me).

 

Mick/Ammo, how do you find out what caused it? It ran really well in its short life. Often

ran warm (between 100-110 (water) but I've always understood that the Duratec was fine at these temperatures (indeed the handbook says that 110 is its 'optimum' temperature. The first and only time the warning light came on (set at the default 115 on my stack dash) was when the gasket went; it quickly shot past, presumably as all the coolant was being sucked into and blown out of the cylinders (none left by the time I'd stopped a couple of hundred yards later). Other than that it was fine, and when the distributor lifted the head they said it was impossible to tell what had caused it. The block needs re-boring (as it is now pitted due to being left with coolant in by the distributor while we wrangled over warranty). If I am replacing the head and the block, is it not of only historic interest now in any event? (Unless I can show it was faulty in some way?). Grateful for your insight on this.

 

Pendennis - standard pistons and rods on the R400 duratec I believe. And no roller TBs; there's a single plenum chamber.

 

Anyone know how much of what I have left over could be used in a 250-270 conversion? I'm assuming that everything but the crank needs changing (including changing intake system and ECU). Could I change internals, and then upgrade intake and ECU at a later stage or does this not make any sense unless you do the whole thing in one shot?

 

Thanks all

 

Chris

[Pendennis]

110 is too hot, no wonder that went pop. Handbook must be wrong

 

My Race 2L Duratec engine does not see anything above 95 In fact I maintain it about 90

 

Your probably best talking to Ammo he knows his stuff

 

Want to rent an 18th century Farmhouse in Rural Somerset?

[CJS]

110 is too hot, no wonder that went pop. Handbook must be wrong

 

The first time it exceeded 100 I did query whether or not this was a problem (as the warning light had not come on). Via the distributor, Caterham responded that the Duratec was good for 125. Had an electric water pump fitted nonetheless although didn't seem to have helped...

 

Chris

[Chris Cardwell]

Out of interest looked up the pressure required to prevent the water boiling for a given temperature:

 

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926.html

 

100C 15 psi

102C 16 psi

104C 17 psi

106C 18 psi

107C 19 psi

109C 20 psi

112C 22 psi

114C 24 psi

117C 27 psi

 

 

[moosetestbestanden]

standard pistons and rods on the R400 duratec I believe. And no roller TBs; there's a single plenum chamber.

 

A single plenum chamber? I haven't ever seen the R400 so I don't know what Caterham do to get 210 hp but in the early days of Duratec that meant TBs & cams.

 

Theoretically (if nothing inside is broken / bent) you should be able to transfer all the good bits (intake system, cams, sump, lightweight clutch / flywheel if it has them, etc.) to a donor and away you go. I did this when I popped an oil ring - a low mileage junkyar... er, reclaiming yard engine cost me $750. I moved all of the good parts from the smoker to the new. It fired up 1st try, no remapping required, and runs essentially identically to the original (knock wood).

 

You may want to switch to an 80 deg. C thermostat while you're at it. 😬

 

Or, go see Ammo for even more fun

 

 

-------

Chris

A verbis ad cursus

[AMMO]

CJS

 

I would want to be running coolant temperatures of between 75 and an absolute maximum of 100 degrees C.

 

I have very little time for electric water pumps and would only use one if the installation due to space did not permit the use of the mechanical pump (which comes free with the engine).

 

The advocates for electric water pumps talk about circulating coolant after shut down. It would be nice to circulate coolant but it is not essential. The engine has been designed by Ford to withstand a lot more than being shut down when hot.

 

Hard to determine what has happened to your engine without doing a post mortem and seeing your cooling installation. In fact I wouldn't mind seeing some photos of how the pump has been installed. Where and how it has been plumbed in. This may in fact be part of your problem.

 

To blow a head gasket and to distort the head takes some doing on a Duratec. I wouldn't be surprised to see signs of detonation on your head, block and pistons.

 

I repeat, there is nothing wrong with the Ford mechanical pump. In fact as the engines when installed in a Caterham rev considerably more than when fitted to the Ford road going vehicles you can slow the pump down and the cooling system still works. I use a bigger pulley to keep the pump at optimum velocity, avoid cavitation and mechanical losses by driving the pump too fast.

 

My own engine, like Pendennis', runs at around 90 degrees. I appreciate that your ambient temperatures are probably much higher than ours, but you should still be looking at running around the temperatures mentioned. More than that and you are asking for trouble, no matter what you local guy says.

 

Good luck with the rebuild.

 

Edited to correct spelling!

 

Ammo

Raceco.com

 

Edited by - AMMO on 21 Jul 2009 17:30:15

[CJS]

Thanks all. Food for thought there.

 

AMMO, I'll email you some photos of the pump fitting once I get the car back. Having discussed further with others it appears that the local dealer's suggestion of running the electric pump without removing the mechanical pump (or at least its impeller blades) perhaps wasn't their greatest idea... (Anyone know where I can get a blanking plate if I do remove the mechanical pump?)

 

Here goes with the rebuild and a replacement (much bigger!) radiator. Perhaps I'll treat myself to a ported head while I'm at it...

 

Chris

 

 

[dannylt]

What radiator did you have before? With the big alloy one and lots more power I've never seen my water temp reach 90 on track after hours after driving - it only ever goes higher when stationary, otherwise it stays constant at about 85. If yours is the only car showing 100+, and the only real difference is the electric pump then surely that is the issue? Sounds like your distributor should be taking some responsibility. Anyway, good luck!

[AMMO]

Chris

 

YHM

 

Ammo

Raceco.com