ric355 Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 K series Supersport. Having done some mods recently I took the car out today for a second test run. I'd managed about 7 miles when I spotted the oil pressure was in the red and the engine was a bit noiser. Turned off immediately and whatever oil was left ended up in the gutter. On closer inspection, the oil pipe which runs from the bottom of the dry sump tank to oil inlet in the sump had been rubbing on the road so there's a 2inch hole in it. I've no idea how long I ran with no oil pressure (it was definitely ok when I set off because I checked it). It was sitting in the red section when I noticed it. So should I just fill it with oil, replace the pipe (and route it properly!) and see what happens, or does it need to come out for a rebuild? Feel like setting fire to it to be honest! Edited by - ric355 on 11 Apr 2009 12:59:48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnty Lyons Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 I'm very afraid it's F***ed my friend No other solution but an engine out and rebuild. With luck you'll only have done the shells and the crank will be ok But no option other than a complete strip and rebuild. jj N.I. L7C AR 🙆🏻 Membership No.3927. 240BHP 1900cc K Series 40th Anniversary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ric355 Posted March 14, 2009 Author Share Posted March 14, 2009 Hmm, that's kinda what I expected to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 The truth is you cannot possibly know if the bearings are rogered or not, but the consequences of not inspecting the engine when the bearings are defunct are too horrible to contemplate and you could easily spit a rod out of the side of the block. Take JJ's advice and have the engine stripped and inspected.. Oily Edited by - oilyhands on 14 Mar 2009 15:46:46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Normans_Ghost Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 ,,, and then fit a very large oil pressure warning light right in front of your eyes. Norman Verona, 1989 BDR 220bhp, Reg: B16BDR, Mem No 2166, the full story here You and your seven toThe French Blatting Company Limited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ric355 Posted March 14, 2009 Author Share Posted March 14, 2009 Indeed I will take said advice. I knew there was no other option. How long's the waiting list Oily? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 bu99er Ric that's bad news, happy to help you pull it and take a look if you want to bring it over btw e-mail sent Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ric355 Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 Some of you will remember this posting from a few weeks ago. Since then I've pulled the engine, had it rebuilt (damage was minimal luckily) and put it all back together. Initially I had low oil pressure so switched to a mechanical gauge to confirm and ultimately ended up removing, cleaning and refitting the oil pressure relief valve which seemed to be stuck open. This gave me good pressure again. Now it's back together it's making a strange noise and I can't identify it. It seems to be coming from the front of the engine somewhere near the oil pump although it's quite hard to pinpoint. Video Here To view it you'll need the xvid codec and it's a 60mb file so be warned if you're on a slow link! In the video the car is started from cold hence no water temperature in case you're wondering. Alternatively there's a very low quality wmv file Here If anyone has any suggestions about the cause of the noise, I'd love to hear them. I found a posting in the archives suggesting that a rapidly opening and closing relief valve can make a nasty noise. Apart from having to take the oil pump off to get to it, it's the only thing that has changed since I ran it up after the rebuild. As far as I can recall it didn't make that noise before I removed and cleaned the relief valve. Edited by - ric355 on 9 Apr 2009 08:58:03 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Noises from a K series: Something loose: Plug lead cover Spark plug Exhaust collector Alternator belt Starter motor Loose exhaust header Check all fixings on engine Loose scavenge pump belt system. Failed bearing in pump pulley? However I'd be tempted to remove the cam belt cover & check the belt run & that everything is tight including the crank pulley, cam wheels etc. Was it a new water pump? To be honest I don't know what a failing one would sound like. Take off the cam cover as well & check torque of all cam ladder fixings: 7ft/lbs I think. Get length of wood, place to your ear & use it like a stethascope to listen to various things. I had an odd noise from my engine I couldn't pin down until in France it turned into a horrendous noise. Car recovererd to the UK & one of the throttle body butterfly screws had decided to take an outing into no 1 cylinder. For most of the time it just rattled around until it got caught between piston & valve, then all hell broke loose noise wise. Bent 2 valves in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 it almost sounds like something touching the cam belt teeth. On the wmv it sounds like a buzz rather than a rattle, and it increases in pitch with revs. I'd say it was something touch one of the moving components at the front, either a cam pulley, belt - dunno what else as I don't have a K engine. let us know what you find. By the way. what damage was done by your oil loss? best of luck Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ric355 Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 I've looked externally and can't find anything rubbing but will keep looking. I took off the timing belt cover but couldn't see anything - although can only get the top part off without removing the cam pulley. What's odd is that it only kicks in with greater than idle revs. If something were physcially catching I would have expected it to happen at idle too. Damage was just to big end bearings - three of four were scored. Oddly the one furthest away from the oil pump was noticeably undamaged by comparison with the others. Will take a pic of them later and post up. There was no blueing so I got away with minimal damage by the look of it (assuming this problem isn't also a symptom of the same failure!) I'm going to nip down to machine mart tomorrow and buy a mechanics stethoscope to help locate the noise. They're only about £7 so worth it if it helps track it down. Edit: But first I'm going to check the plug lead cover coz I haven't done that yet! Edited by - ric355 on 9 Apr 2009 13:31:45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 ric, It could be the scavenge pump. Can you find a way to spin it up alone? In fact, if it has been running completely dry for a while it could well be damaged too. /regin Edited by - RJ on 9 Apr 2009 13:49:44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 could be the scavange pump belt which I guess is also toothed. I've listened again and it does sound like something buzzing on a belt or a tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ric355 Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 It's a purple pump so the belt is a vee groove rather than toothed. New belt installed, and new alternator belt as well. I've had a screwdriver to my ear with the tip on the scavenge pump and it doesn't appear to be coming from there. It's maybe hard to tell from the video but it's actually a high frequency on-off-on type noise. I likenened it earlier to the a piece of card through bicycle wheel spokes only more intense (for those of you that are old enough!). Thanks for all the input so far - a few things to look at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Deslandes Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I was going to use that analogy but I didn't think anyone would know what I was talking about 😬. That's what made me think it might be a toothed 'something' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CageyH Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 Does it make the same noise when you operate the clutch? Only dead fish go with the flow....! Edited by - CageyH on 9 Apr 2009 15:32:51 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ric355 Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 Clutch position makes no difference. Are you thinking layshaft rattle? Dipping the clutch does stop the layshaft rattle but this one still occurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CageyH Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 I was thinking CRB noise... Only dead fish go with the flow....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted April 9, 2009 Share Posted April 9, 2009 It's not a cable tie hitting the scavenge pump pulley or idler pulley? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ric355 Posted April 9, 2009 Author Share Posted April 9, 2009 Cagey I replaced the CRB while the engine was out. I also put a lightweight flywheel in at the same time and a new clutch plate. Clutch operates OK. Oh, and a 6 speed gearbox. Poking around a bit more tonight with a screwdriver against my ear, I detect the noise more loudly at the point from the side of the block just below the thermostat. Water pump? Thought it was the oil pump earlier but I realize now that is lower down. Edited by - ric355 on 9 Apr 2009 20:35:38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Englishmaninwales Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 Cambelt cover? The rear portion, if loose, can rub against the back of the timing wheels. Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ric355 Posted April 10, 2009 Author Share Posted April 10, 2009 I've changed the water pump this morning as I thought that might have been it and the only way to check the bearings seemed to be to remove it. It's back together now and it still makes the same noise. Only 28 quid and a bit of my time so not a big deal. Having listened in various other places with my ear on the end of a screwdriver, I'm now back where I started and am more sure than ever that it's the oil pressure relief valve. If I put the tip of the screwdriver on the plug which holds the valve in place then it's very pronounced. Once it was back together I let the car warm up - not got an oil temp gauge but based on the idle pressure of 45-50psi hot, the noise doesn't kick in until the pressure reaches about 60psi when I rev it. I need to rev it higher when hot to make it happen than when cold where it basically happens from anything but idle rpm. Is my understanding of the way the relief valve works correct? There's a spring which is compressed by the small piston when the oil pressure increases. As the piston moves, a new path opens up because oil can flow through the holes in the end of the piston, which in turn allows the pressure to drop again. This causes the piston to move back under the tension of the spring. At this point the oil pressure is no longer relieved so if high enough the piston will move again and the cycle starts over. Since this is a mechanical process there's no smoothing and so the valve will repeatedly open and close if the oil pressure is at the point where the valve will open and there are no other means by which the pressure can be reduced. So if that is all correct, then I've either got: - a relief valve that opens too soon (spring weakened?) - too high oil pressure in the first place - or it's still nothing to do with the relief valve at all ! Under normal operation, is the relief valve expected to open or is it supposed to be normally closed and sit there as a safety net? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CageyH Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 I would go for a weakened spring. Sounds like the noise could be explained by the oil pressure relief valve theory. If the valve is cycling quickly enough, it will give you the noise you describe. I have found this noise on a recent test of a valve assembly, where the valve was oscillating at a high frequency. Only dead fish go with the flow....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 is the relief valve expected to open or is it supposed to be normally closed and sit there as a safety net? I think the hint is in the name of the valve... But - hang on a minute - why would the valve be affected by the loss of oil from the original problem? Isn't the problem more likely to relate to the pump itself (e.g. bearings-shot - vibration caused at revs, valve goes into resonance...???) 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 Alcester Racing 7s Ecosse™ 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 Alcester-Racing-Sevens.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CageyH Posted April 10, 2009 Share Posted April 10, 2009 If the spring was strong enough, the pressure should not affect it, even if it was not constant pressure and was cyclic, unless it was too weak. Only dead fish go with the flow....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now