Crossflow approaching BBE date - what to do?

[Crudders]

Cruising through this site I sometimes get the impression that I'm in a teeny weeny minority as the owner of a live axle, crossflow, four speed seven. Has everyone gone out and bought a Superlight or is it just that there are more computer hating Luddites among the ranks of the REAL SEVEN owners? Or am I just labouring under a misapprehension (why is it that a misapprehension involves labouring do you think)?

 

Anyway, I'm sure my dilemma is a common one - my faithful crossflow has now carried the car for approx. 20k miles and while it still pulls like a train the crankcase pressure is climbing, the breather really is breathing and the garage floor is looking like a second sump.

 

So what to do?

 

The options seem to be:

 

1) Pull the engine apart and attempt a DIY rebuild to existing 1700 Super Sprint spec. (assuming it's not too shagged)

2) Pull the engine apart, rebuild the head (it's a good one) and talk to Roger King about an 1800 short engine.

3) Acquire a complete 1700 or 1800 crossflow lump (was there ever an engine more deserving of the term "lump"?), either a rebuild from a specialist such as Roger or perhaps a good used one from someone with a bad case of Upgradeitis or delusions of Blackbird.

4) Dump the crossflow and acquire a good 2 litre Zetec, talk to Jim Whiting and/or Dunnel about mounts, cooling, headers etc.

5) Ditto but acquire a 2 litre 16V Vauxhall (not a common conversion to a live axle but if I'm not mistaken Lol did this to MTV?).

6) Ditto but acquire a 1.8 litre K Series - again not common but Juno Sportscars have just completed such a conversion on a customers car.

7) Ditto but acquire a 1.7 litre Zetec SE as fitted to the Ford Puma. A fine engine but I don't know of any installations in 7's and it's rumoured that Ford may not have stuck with their traditional bell housing bolt pattern. So I could be out on a limb (curious expression that) getting it in the car and mated to cooling system, exhaust, box etc.

 

I like the power delivery of the crossflow (pulls from practically tickover) and the fact that I can probably take it apart and fix it for not a lot of money if it goes pop. And I love the fireworks and the noise, especially on the over-run (thraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarsssssssssssp-kplup-kplup-BANG! Sorry mate, was that your dog I just combusted?). But I'm not so keen on the 15mpg consumption and its habit of spewing oil. Diamond Dave is especially not keen on its habit of spewing oil as most of it seems to end up on his drive.

 

The Zetec seems a good bet - plenty of grunt without any internal mods and a fairly easy swap, which should allow me to keep my wonderful Quaife four speeder. But where's the noise? And is the fuel consumption significantly better than the crossflow when running on Webers (I doubt if the budget can stretch to throttle bodies)? And it's HEAVIER than the crossflow.

 

Much the same applies to the 16V Vauxhall but the engines are harder to find, dearer to buy/install and are EVEN HEAVIER than the Zetec. The Quaife would have to go as it won't mate (integral bell housing) and it probably wouldn't take too kindly to the fat torque anyway. Nice power delivery tho' - I've had two Vauxhalls with this engine, by far the best bit of otherwise pretty dull cars.

 

The K series is appealing in terms of lightness and fuel economy and By Gad, it's British! (at least it will be if Phoenix get to buy the engine plant which is still owned by B****ingM****ingW. ****s!). There must be loads of them out there. A bit peaky though, and the noise is, well, civilised. All the bits for hooking it up should be available off the shelf but at what cost? Again, it's goodbye to the box.

 

And what about this 'ere Zetec SE? Yamaha designed and fettled, should have good driveability and economy thanks to variable valve timing, all ali so light in weight, compatibility with the old box (maybe), should be loads about before long so the tuning companies are bound to run with it. It seems too good to be true. So it probably is.

 

On balance I'm very tempted to go for a new crossflow - anyone care to reassure me or talk me out of it? Or share any secrets on improving crossflow oil/fuel consumption? And no, slowing down is not an option - I know Arnie, any slower and I'll be reaching for reverse. Tee Hee. But then your motor makes EVERYTHING look like it's standing still.

 

Help?

 

 

Crudders

 

Edited by - Crudders on 1 Sep 2000 06:39:38

[Casbar]

Crudders,

 

I am another luddite who is the proud owner of a 1660 x-flow live axle.

 

I have thought about most of the options you outlined above; costed the Zetec, costed the k series, read about the VX lump.

 

I came to the conclusion that I'm going to let Roger King work some magic on my x flow. If I really wanted to change to another power plant, it seemed to be cheaper to trade in my current seven and buy a new one with the preferred option.

 

Rgds, Robert

[I.Mupferit]

Luddite No. 3 here! I went 2L Zetec route and haven't regretted it for one moment, it pulls like Warren Beatty on Viagra, the exhaust noise is not as raspy as the X/Flow but the induction roar is just as good. Personally I would go Zetec but then I am biased and it all depends on your bank balance.

Oh and by the way fuel consumption is around 23-25 mpg, not good but better than the X/Flow due I suspect to the improved torque.

 

Brent

[Peter Carmichael]

How about rebuilding the Supersprint and putting 3D mapped ignition on it. You will get better drivability and better fuel econony apart from at the track.

[Crudders]

Casbar,

 

I agree, changing the car is the most economical, not to mention easiest way of upgrading your engine. But it's not an option for me - I could never bring myself to part with my 7 (long build, long story).

 

Would be very interested to hear how far down the road you are with your Roger King rebuild. Have you decided on a spec, cost etc? One of our North Kent members (Dave, whose driveway got a mention in the original posting) has a 185 bhp 1800 crossflow built by Roger and it runs like a swiss watch. Well, maybe not as quiet but you know what I mean.

 

Thanks for the note on the 3D mapped ignition Peter. I have seen these advertised (I think Roger K does them?) and would be interested to hear from anyone who's fitted it. Purely on payback for improved fuel consumption it probably isn't worth it but does it also improve power, driveability etc?

 

Brent, if it's not a rude question, what was the total cost of your zetec conversion?

 

At the moment it seems to be a toss up between an 1800 crossflow and a 2 litre zetec.

 

Crudders

[Andrew Dent]

I bought a Weber Alpha 3D kit for my previous car. It did improve the consumption, but in realllity, it meant I put my foot down more, and negated the benefit. Fitting was easy. The overall benefit was better low down pull from the engine. The Weber kit comes with al the bits and is a top quality piece of kit. Mapping is not quite as striaght forward. I used one of Roger Kings maps. The 3D did improve the drivability of the engine. Which leads to more right foot.

 

Andrew

[I.Mupferit]

Total cost of the Zetec conversion, including low mileage engine from wrecked Mondeo, was about £2900.00. It can be done more cheaply but I went for some flashy bits from Raceline such as powder coated cam cover, cam cover insert, cast alu. water rail, silicone hoses all for no other reason than they look good!

I used the Raceline cast sump, which again isn't cheap but is really well engineered and incredibly strong - vital I believe when it is so near to the ground. One of my reasons for going Zetec was in the interest of long term durability. The old X/Flow is a good engine but it has to be said does need 'refreshing' more frequently than a modern 16 valver so whilst it may be cheaper to go this route initially, I firmly believe the Zetec will be cheaper in the long run. Paricularly if, like me, you intend keeping your Seven until you are too old or senile to get into it any more. In fact I will probably ask to be buried in it!

 

Brent

 

Edited by - brent chiswick on 2 Sep 2000 18:42:20

[John E]

I had this dilema back in May/June when I approached Roger King for some advice on my crossflow which was of unknown parentage. Roger completely (and I mean completely because of its condition) rebuilt the engine. I could, for the cost involved gone the Zetec route but I had always wanted the car to be a crossflow with 4 speed box and a live axle. Ok it may require more tlc than a modern engine and when I go to area meetings there are more powerful etc cars/engines than mine but at the end of the day I've got what I wanted, the (in my opinion) quintessenial 7. The engine is easy to work on and does not leak oil. Roger is always very helpful and can do further mods if required. It drinks fuel but that is cos I love pushing the go pedal.

The car/engine goes very well and sounds great.It will keep up with most on the most twisty of lanes but its bloody auful on the M6 but who the hell really wants to sustain high speeds in straight line in a 7 anyway.

Go for the crossflow, it wont let you down but beware the rev limiter. (private or not so private joke eh Stuart and Pete et al.)

[I.Mupferit]

Crudders

I don't know where you live, although I am assuming N.Kent, but if you would like to arrange to meet somewhere, I can show you/ have ride in my car to help you decide which way to go.

Brent

[Crudders]

Thanks for the additional info. chaps.

 

Andrew - living in London I probably would see an improvement in mpg as whenever I want to put my foot down there's some arse up ahead in a lowered *** (sorry, can't bring myself to say those 3 letters of the devil) or a Nova with blacked out windows, cruising at 20 mph and rearranging the internal organs of all around with the power of his subwoofer.

 

2.9 bags seems a pretty good price for a zetec conversion Brent - I was expecting it to be higher. The improved fuel economy and durability really appeal. I like the idea of (probably) never having to pull the engine out again, and 23 - 25 mpg not that great? It's about 60% more than I'm getting! Like you I do not intend to ever part with my 7. I've e.mailed you directly re. your kind offer of a peek/drive. Is your 7 a live axle BTW?

 

John E - I think you've hit the nail on the head. The crossflow engine/live axle/4 speed box is the quintessential combination - far more stimulating to the senses than all these sanitised modern motors. I'd love a top notch RK 1800 crossflow but the 'cost in use' concerns me. Not only does a good engine cost a lot in the first place, it has a limited life, doesn't like consistently high revs and drinks fuel. But I don't know if I could lose the character of the crossflow, not to mention the ability to toast small domestic animals on the over run. Also, I've heard that the AX blocks required for the 1800 conversion are becoming scarce - any truth in this?

 

Ooooh, decisions, decisions.

 

{To all owners of lowered ***'s and Nova's with blacked out windows: It wasn't my intention to offend - please accept my sincere apologies. Y' ****wits.}

 

 

Crudders

 

Edited by - Crudders on 4 Sep 2000 02:33:12

[Alex Wong1697456877]

I heard that someone payed a grand for a top condition AX block to use for a BDR!

[John E]

now that my engine has been sorted and with a competition exhaust I can cauterize leg ulcers as well as roast the odd sheep at 3 paces, all on over run. I'm afraid that I dont have an answer on the thicker walled block. Mine certainly would not go to 1800 but i'm sure that Mr R K has a supply channel set up somewhere.

Best of luck with the decision, when RK told me about the condition of my engine I had to down a full bottle of Prozac and speak very nicely to my beloved but hell it was worth it. I think she now enjoys the car as much as I do, she even drove it last weekend.

[Petrolhead]

Does R King have a web site?

[John E]

Dont think he does but he does have e-mail.

rkingeng@aol.com

 

 

 

[Peter Carmichael]

RK is on holiday this week.

 

Oh, and you're not to go distracting him next week when he is building my super-K at long last.biggrin.gif

[Vogon SuperTrooper]

John,

you tease me. My xflow is also due for RK's twinkling finger tips (possibly) yet I am beset by the curse of 'that bloody car'. So how, in the name of peace, did you persuade your better half that driving this car's not all about bills?

 

many thanks

Charles

[John E]

Charles my friend, my dearest pursuaded herself A very quick trip through the lanes with a modicum of sideways motoring is enough to get the juices flowing, adrenalin that is. She considers that the car is "ours" rather than "mine" and in the past has driven the odd quick motor and so it was not a major selling job to get her to give it a try. I have to say however that once she was in the hot seat we slowed down a touch or two but nevertheless managed to pull 4.5k in top. My comments about that "bloody car" are nothern terms of endearment and such sentiments will continue I expect because I am sure that something will always require fixing. Additionally my other half is a true soul mate and protects our bank account with venom. I think that I am very lucky.

[Graham Sewell]

Class me as another luddite. I wanted a car that is fun but not technically sophisticated - that way I could get my hands dirty without worrying about chips, EMUs, etc....

 

I love the xflow for the same reasons, coughs, splutters, over-run explosions. I would just budget on a rebuild every x0,000 miles (more frequent if track daying it).

 

Cheers,

 

Graham