John Howe Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 You may recall a posting I made in the Spring regarding flywheel and 7.25" multi plate clutch QED supplied me for my K series. Having fitted the rebuilt engine into the car I found the clutch mechanism, at full travel, failed to make contact with the clutch! On day one, QED said they had never had that problem and would make me a special flywheel, but by end of play on day two the story had changed to we only sell them,,, you guys have to make them work. Now the short fall was 15-16mm and Foxy Smith and I though we were very clever by taking a Saab release bearing (suggested by PC) and grafting it to the original Ford bearing. It made up the lost distance perfectly and the car was again on the road. Unfortunately, the story does not have a happy ending.... an odd remark by the guys who had balanced the engine was playing on my mind in relationship to the clutch/flywheel assembly, so to-day I lifted the engine to check it out. What I did find was that the QED supplied flywheel/clutch was not all it should be. Only one friction plate (that nearest the g/box) had been in service, the other plate had hardly engaged on the g/box shaft and the few mm that had sat on the splines had quickly been stripped off. An exercise with the measuring stick indicated that the plate had failed to engage fully on the splines by about 15mm i.e. the distance that the set up was out in the first place. Now I wont ask if anyone else has had trouble with QED parts because I know the sort of replies that will follow... but can anyone throw any light on the flywheel and particularly the dimensions because they have suggested they have sold several of them with no problem... if they have it wasn't for a K series Seven with a dry sump bell housing. JH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHRIS CLARK Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 Suggest you talk with Arnie W & Mr Aves!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 John, Suggest you read through the "we sold several no problem" prose. I got the same with the bearings issue. Seems very odd to me however. My first question would be to ask if you used the same crankshaft and gearbox 1st motion shaft together in the car before. Also, does the 1st motion shaft seat fully into the spigot bearing in the back of the crank? Give me a call as I'm up the road and maybe a fresh peek will reveal all. need to look at the storage anyway.......01342 316166 thx Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM siteid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 QED sell parts for K-series engines, but hardly ever for the particulars of a Caterham installation. I had them redesign the flywheel for the 5.5 inch quartermaster clutch to achieve spline engagement, but I hadn't parted with the money until I had thoroughly researched the fit of the matter. I bet Aves will be along to tell us that if they assured you of its suitability in a Caterham implementation then there will be a liability issue. If it was sold as a component part and they came clean during the sales process that they had never fitted one to a Caterham bellhousing and had no experience then fair's fair. To change their tune after the sale to "we just flog em" isn't going to be good enough if their representations are significantly different beforehand. Peterid=teal> 253 BHP K-seriesteeth.gif, no gearboxbum.gifid=red> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted June 26, 2002 Share Posted June 26, 2002 Richard Ince has just had two fitted to his R500s. Peterid=teal> 253 BHP K-seriesteeth.gif, no gearboxbum.gifid=red> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted June 27, 2002 Share Posted June 27, 2002 There are two different lengths of input shafts available for the six speeder. The early ones up to about serial number 800 had the longer shaft. The later boxes were 25-30mm shorter, could this be your problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted June 28, 2002 Author Share Posted June 28, 2002 Sorry for the delay in replying, I was off the air yesteday as I'm silaging i.e. driving two tractors as once... kind of splits a guy in half. Arnie: Same 6 speed box as before, just change in bellhousing for the dry sump and a Doug Kiddie crank. Peter: Right from the begining I had trouble. The spline portion of the friction plate was sitting on the crankshaft, thus preventing the friction material touching the flywheel. Their explanation was that AP Racing had changed the specification and QED then supplied me with a new plate where the centre had been ground back the necessary distance. Thereafter the flywheel bolts fouled the friction plate - here they again offered to grind them down but I did them myself. Informing Paul in their workshop how much I had needed to remove (as he had requested). What do you know of Richard Ince's? Rob: The car is 1997 - haven't checked out the G/box number. The distance from end of crank to begining of radius to spline is 8mm and the face of the flywheel lines up with middle of the radius on the shoulder of the splines. Since the clutch plate splines are off-set they effectively miss the g/box shaft completely. Yes, I wish I had measured it all before fitting... but then I took QED on trust that their components would work/fit. JH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 Ah 1997 that would be an early six speeder with the long input shaft, I had to sorten mine of that same vintage to gain clearance into the blind spigot bearing hole on my steel crank IIRC about 25 mm. I have also had problems with QED and their attitude is we don`t fit engines into cars so we never get invloved in all that your on your own. The problam I have with this unhelpfull attitude is that even when you give them feedback in writting they will still sell to the next punter and claim ignorance. I have to say that both Ken and Paul at QED have been very helpfull with advice its just the sales side that sucks IMO. Hope you reading this SIMON. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted June 28, 2002 Author Share Posted June 28, 2002 Rob, yes I had to remove 25mm and of course found out the hard way i.e. after I had tried to fit the engine. Very nerve racking experience standing in the engine bay with a farmyard size angle grinder chopping the end of the shaft.... must have measured it 6 or 7 times before I could find the courage. JH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted June 28, 2002 Share Posted June 28, 2002 Mathew, Just added Robs comments to our little file! Rob/John, The input shaft length only varies on the spigoit portion of the shaft. The distance of the splined section from the front face of the gearbox, and the legth of the sp[lined section are the same on all versions of the shaft. The issue came from the design of the box being multifitment for Ford and K and VX - the original boxes had the longer input shaft, so the crankshaft was drilled out behind the spigoit needle roller bearing to accomodate the additional length. This applied to all 1400cc K's and early 1600's. On most 1600's and all 1800's the shorter shaft is used. The above however bears no relevance to your problem other than the fact that your DK crank does not have the deep spigot hole hence the long input shaft will not fit. The issue with the cluch plates on the splines is well known in the race fraternity (according to Phil Stewart) - many racers run the cars with only 1/8 and 3/16" engagement on 2nd clutch plate!!! Depending on your engines torque output they will either survive or fail. The component which needs changing here (assuming you cannot pack the second palte in the clutch backwards) is the flywheel - you need a deeper offset off the back of the crank, such as PC has had made. With a Rover gearbox as per Elise/MGF etc the input shaft may be splined such that the issue does not arise. So John, you need a different flywheel. (Or a Vauxhall engine , but then you've chopped a lump off your gearbox!) I would tell Richard this also, but then theres the chance of a perfectly timed failure on 25th August!!! Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM siteid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Edited by - fat arnie on 28 Jun 2002 11:02:47 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted June 28, 2002 Author Share Posted June 28, 2002 The issue with the cluch plates on the splines is well known in the race fraternity (according to Phil Stewart) - many racers run the cars with only 1/8 and 3/16" engagement on 2nd clutch plate!!! Depending on your engines torque output they will either survive or fail. Arnike, I would suggest I had barely 1/8"... and the rest is history. Yes, I agree I need more off-set... but that what I was telling QED back in March. Following my phone conversation with QED, who conveniently could not remember the March saga, I put the whole issue in writing (with measurements) yesterday, with the request for a phone response by to-day... I'm still waiting! JH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I reply to every thread Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 I'm not sure that I've ever had a problem with QED parts - an incorrect fuel regulator maybe. I did see them lose a few thousand Kraut Euro's to Swindon at the racing car show though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 Niceley put...... Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM siteid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ince Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 I purchased new flywheels which Minister machined and fitted to suit the 7.25 clutch. Standard R500 clutches were lasting about 500 miles. After another failed at Curborough I decided to go the Quarter Master route. I have not had any problems so far........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted June 29, 2002 Share Posted June 29, 2002 OK, sounds as if you have a different flywheel Richard. Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM siteid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted June 30, 2002 Author Share Posted June 30, 2002 Richard, are the flywheels you mentioned a Minster "product" or were they "one-offs" I assume you are running with the standard dry-sump clutch mechanism? JH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ince Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Minister machined flywheels which were purchased from QED. I have not gone down the hydraulic route as per Peter C and find the clutch pedal no heavier than the standard AP clutch. Edited by - richard ince on 30 Jun 2002 14:23:43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EFA Posted June 30, 2002 Share Posted June 30, 2002 Richard, It has to be a deeper flywheel to start, otherwise you would have same prob. Fat Arn Visit the K2 RUM siteid=red> See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted July 2, 2002 Author Share Posted July 2, 2002 ... an up date of events, and it looks like I'm going to start believing in Santa again... Having restated my case in writing and faxing this, along with a sketch of the relative dimensions, to QED last Thursday I waited and waited for their response. By mid-morning on Monday they still had not responded so I phoned them... my letter had not been seen, it would be looked for and they would phone me back. By 4.30 p.m., they still had not phoned me back. I had run out of patience and phoned them again... to be pleasantly surprised, for they agreed “to bite on the bullet” and produce a one-off, even suggesting perhaps they should have been done so in March. My dimensions are to be added to their standard drawing of the flywheel and sent to me for approval... fingers crossed, the new flywheel should be with me by next Wednesday. I will keep you all informed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg Posted July 2, 2002 Share Posted July 2, 2002 John, Sounds like positive progress! Greg Greg, Q 880 RAE (Green/Ali XF) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted July 2, 2002 Author Share Posted July 2, 2002 Greg, I hope so... but then this is how it all started. You know that proverb about counting your chickens.... but fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted July 4, 2002 Author Share Posted July 4, 2002 WEll, so far so good... the promised drawing was faxed through (albeit after I had chased), this now showed the face of the flywheel 10mm closer to the gearbox than their original flywheel. I requested this be increase by a further 5mm i.e. to 15mm closer to the g/box - no problem was the reply. So fingers crossed... Edited by - John Howe on 4 Jul 2002 08:45:47 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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