John Vine Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 I run an R400 Duratec S3 with a wet sump. At a couple of recent trackdays (Brands, Donington), I noticed a fair amount of smoke on fast, sharp righthanders, especially when preceded by a lefthander (e.g. Mcleans). I've asked the chaps at Millwoods, who think the problem is oil surge, and that the best solution would be a dry sump. I agree in principle, but as I do only three or four trackdays a year, I'm looking for something a little cheaper if possible. What options do I have? JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markiebabes Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Can you fit an Apollo tank like here not sure if you can with the duratec though ? Mark R400 MW 203 bhp of pure fun ( more so with Aero fitted ) 7 pics here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasmaninaseven Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Seems to be a feature of the car; breather venting into plenum ( look underneath to see pipe) can be blanked off ; CC do "kit", so worth a call. Symptom worse when well topped up with oil. Neil Build pictures here Guantanamo Bay Orange SUPERLIGHT R400...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie. Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Could also be over filled with oil. Oil surges up the bores, past the pistons and gets burnt. Know less that nothing about Duratecs, but have seen this happen on other engines. Check your oil level. Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasmaninaseven Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 "Overfilling" an issue ( mine did it after a small top-up), but they seem to do it when the dipstick says appropriately filled, IME. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 Thanks, chaps. Mark: I'm told that the Duratec doesn't need an Apollo (at least, it wasn't an option at order time). But isn't it intended to de-aerate the oil rather than help with surge? Neil: Thanks for that. I'll investigate tomorrow with Darren. Another Blatchatter has emailed me to say that his Duratec has two breathers routed to the catchtank, one from the camcover and one from the crankcase. Perhaps that's an alternative to blanking off the crankcase breather? Looks like a solution is just around the corner.... JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie. Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Neil, Best thing for anyone experiencing this is to drop the sump and have a look at the dipstick in position. Only then can you really see how full full is. Also have a close look at the construction of any sump baffles or gaskets. Can the oil return quickly to the sump, or could it be getting trapped above a gasket? Could a baffle be fitted to the suffering side to stop the oil surging up the crankcase? Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted December 2, 2008 Author Share Posted December 2, 2008 So, it seems as though the problem is caused by oil surging via the crankcase breather into the intake plenum? I don't (yet) know how my crankcase breather is configured, but I'll have a look tomorrow. JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Walker Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 John, I run a 2L duratec with a Raceline wet sump and not had any problems with burning oil during cornering. Suggest you recalibrate your dip stick by draining all the oil out then refilling with 4.5L including the oilfilter as a max oil level on your dip stick plus a tad more if you have an oil cooler. I would also ensure that your engine breathers from the cam cover and the block are routed to a catch tank, you should have no further problems. I also do not think that uou need a dry sump. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Oil surge is not the issue here by the sounds of it. My Raceline wet sump is fine provided its filled correctly. If the oil is being burnt then its most likely getting fed through the breather to the plenum and into the induction. The breather will be fed to the induction to manage emissions. Your best bet is to route the breather from the engine to a catch tank instead of to the plenum. and then block the hole in the plenum. As John and others above have said here is C7 TOP Taffia joint AO with Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasmaninaseven Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Agreed, that's the way I read it. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 Dave J: I'm confused now. If, as you say, oil surge is not the problem, how does the oil reach the breather and then get into the plenum? JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 It runs up the left side of the block on right hand turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie. Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 It runs up the left side of the block on right hand turns The definition of surge 😬 Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 It's not that simple Willie. The Raceline sump is very well baffled and has a plate on top of the chambers in the sump and which has (now) 3 holes in it to let the oil back to these chambers and the oil pickup. Two of these holes are roughly on the centre line of the crank and the third one is slightly offset to one side. When cornering the oil will, for a time, sit above the plate as it is being forced over to one side or the other, being unable to flow back through the drain holes. As mic says, on right handers the oil will run up the side of the block to where the crankcase breather is sited and from there will be sucked into the inlet plenum via the breather pipe, thus causing the smoke. In a straight line, the oil should, in theory, be able to drain back through the 3 drainage holes into the chambers below and thus to the oil pickup. Brent (aka Arfur Nayo) Toyota power It's the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie. Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 So what's complicated about that? As an engineer, what would you recommend to fix it? Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 To clarify, is the Raceline sump fitted as standard to the R400 Duratec? JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Why should I need to recommend anything, CC already have a fix for it. No point reinventing the wheel. Brent (aka Arfur Nayo) Toyota power It's the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I believe it is John, yes. When I had this same sump on my Duratec, I did what others have suggested on here and routed the crankcase breather to a catch tank. I had DTH throttle bodies anyway so the question of running the breather to the inlet never arose. Latterly I had a dry sump and so the crankcase breather was blanked off. Brent (aka Arfur Nayo) Toyota power It's the future! Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 3 Dec 2008 18:23:21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Vine Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 Darren in Parts tells me that CC don't stock the blanking plugs. He suggests I contact Minister as it's possible they use these plugs on the race engines. Thanks for all your advice, chaps. My plan is to re-route the crankcase breather to the catchtank and cap the plenum pipe (provided I can get the right bits!). JV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie. Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Hope you get it sorted John. Brent, I always re-invent the wheel, its the only way you learn stuff. Especially if the normal "fix" is to cover up the symptoms rather than curing the fault. Willie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJG Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 John, I have just seen your post, my car does exactly the same thing. Would you post details of any fix if possible. Thanks Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Willie, the 'fix' is a perfectly acceptable way of preventing this problem. The ultimate 'fix' is easy enough as Millwoods suggested in the first place, ie, fitting a dry sump. But that is costly and I can well understand John's desire to keep the cost down, especially if he just does the odd track day here and there. There is absolutely no point him spending 100's of pounds trying to fix a very minor problem when it can be easily and cheaply circumvented by the suggested method of re-routing the crankcase breather. Simplicity is the key here. Brent (aka Arfur Nayo) Toyota power It's the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie. Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Putting the holes in the sump top "lid" plate thing in a better place would likely cost less and solve the surge...not just stop the symptoms. But, I haven't seen the particular application so I can't say for definite. Just I'd rather have my oil around the pickup instead of floating about above some plate getting crank windage and pushed up breathers. Just my uninformed opinion of course. Willie 😬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Mupferit Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 In many respects I agree with you. Personally, I don't like the Raceline wet sump as fitted to the Duratec, for some of the reasons you mention as it happens. Nevertheless, if cost is a factor then there are cheaper/easier ways than going dry sump, of resolving John's particular problem whilst still keeping a system that works reasonably well for most people. Let's face it, this breather pipe is only routed to the inlet plenum for the sake of emissions and, apart from Roger Ford, just how many 7 owners give a flying f*** about environmental issues where the 7 is concerned? And trust me on this, putting the holes in a different location categorically does not resolve the problem. Don't ask me how I know this. Brent (aka Arfur Nayo) Toyota power It's the future! Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 4 Dec 2008 08:30:46 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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