What are the benefits of inboard front suspension?

[Billyboy]

I fear this may be a .......Numpty question............

 

I see a few "freestyle" front suspension equiped cars and there is the CSR also with inboard front suspension, so whats the benefit?

I suppose there is the reduced wind resistance from the shocks and springs 😬

Apart from that though all I can see is more linkages to go wrong/wear out.

 

Do the shocks work better?

 

[Powderpuff]

Sex appeal

[Gambo]

see here

 

been done.

[Willie.]

To summarise:

 

- More efficient damping

With normal suspension, as the wheel goes up, the end of the damper goes up, thus becoming more horizontal. Imagine if it was totally horizontal, moving one end up/down would hardly move it at all. This means its falling rate, where the spring effectively gets weaker the more the suspenion compresses. Having a different linkage allows the rate to be rising.

 

- Less Drag

Its minimal, but there is an advantage.

 

- Better weight distribution

The dampers can be mounted more centrally, giving better weight distribution and less unsprung weight. Again, this is all marginal...and I'm not keen on the FreeStyle setup where the dampers are mounted quite high.

 

 

It also looks better and makes it easier to clean, aswell as making ride height adjustments easier.

 

The CSR offering is ghastly...in my strongly biased, worthless opinion.

 

Disadvantages are that you dump the damper in the hot air of the radiator.

 

Willie

[I.Mupferit]

Sigh...........the dampers will suffer absolutely zero ill effect from being in the warm airstream behind the radiator. In any event, the dampers as fitted to the Freestyle system are pretty much out of this airflow and on the CSR, the warm air is deflected up through the nosecone, away from the dampers. But like I say, it doesn't matter a jot, the dampers will suffer no adverse effects.

 

I also defy you to notice any discernible ill effect from lightweight aluminium bodied dampers being mounted slightly high up on the Freestyle system, instead of slightly lower as standard. It's a Caterham 7 for goodness sake, not a highly strung circuit racer like an F1 car where detail changes might make a difference measured in 000's of a second per lap. There are just too many other variables on a 7 to affect performance without worrying about such trivia as a damper mounted a bit higher!

 

I don't believe Brodie Branch found the system wanting when he was racing the Freestyle cars.

 

I was very pleased with the handling of my car fitted with Freestyles inboard suspension by the way.

 

Brent

(aka Arfur Nayo)

 

Toyota power It's the future!

 

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 19 Nov 2008 14:26:05

[Mark Durrant]

There are too many other variables on a 7 to affect performance without worrying about such trivia as a damper mounted a bit higher

 

Brent

 

Too true and the biggest being the driver 😳

 

Mark D

Comp Sec

 

[Billyboy]

Thanks for the info - You almost always get an informed opinion here about anything technical!! 😬

 

Sex appeal

 

However I could always use more of this 😬

 

Thanks! If ever I find myself single again I know what to do now

[Mike Biddle]

I'll say it again, totaly transformed my car in terms of ride, steering, turn in and handling.

 

It's worth a lot more than it costs.

[k80rum]

Completely agree with what Mike said - it (the Freestyle offering) gave an out-of-the-box improvement before I even looked at getting it set up

 

One of the best changes you can make

 

Darren E

 

K80 RUM Website and Emerald maps library

 

Duratec/SuperlightR hybrid

[Jason Plato]

I don't believe Brodie Branch found the system wanting when he was racing the Freestyle cars

 

apart from coming second to me with conventional suspension 😬

 

benifit should be in greater damper control through greater damper movement as a result of the pivot thingy multiplying the movement of the damper rod. or something like that ......

 

how much "better" it feels or how much quicker it is against the clock largely depends on how poorly setup the car was originally I guess.

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia joint AO with Al

 

 

Edited by - Dave Jackson on 19 Nov 2008 16:21:29

[Willie.]

Brent,

 

If you're so keen on compromise you should've bought a Mondeo, or fitted a diesel to your 7.

 

I've never driven one, but from what I've read I'd say the Freestyle setup is the best front suspension (Wishbone & gubbins) upgrade currently available to Caterham owners.

 

I just wanted to give the guy some feedback on his question and some stuff to think about.

 

You're fairly positive on the dampers, clearly you've done a fair bit of research. What oil temps are we looking at between outboard and inboard mounted? (Oh, and I did say that weight distribution was marginal).

 

Willie

[paul jacobs]

All that technical stuff about rising rates is all very well, but at the end of the day, what we all want to know is, what does it feel like on the road

 

I've had no experience with the Freestyle setup, others who have, say it is good, very good, I've been running my CSR for 3 summers now, and whilst it is a bit difficult to be definitive about the front end, because the back is also completely different, and of course the two ends work together, I can say that I have a much more compliant setup, with better front end grip, ie no discernable understeer on the track, and certainly none on the road, the front end feels slightly softer, but the wheels stay on the tarmac more of the time. There is nil bump steer and the steering wheel is noticeably less lively in my hands, whilst still giving me all the feedback I could ask for.

 

Downsides? A little more complicated, and it uses spherical joints throughout, meaning more expense, but also less friction of course. Maybe it weighs a little more too.

 

On the whole, I like it much better than any of the previous Sevens I've had 😬

 

Paul J.

Loud pipes save lives, but quiet ones save your hearing.

[rgrigsby]

As a recent convert I maybe able to help, I've driven loads of standard and SV se7ens over the years and owned a standard car with a variety of engines and suspenstion set-ups so I think I have a fairly wide experience of what's out there.

 

I fitted the freestye pushrod system to my car in June this year, the main differences I've noticed are :-

 

Much lighter steering, I run a 22% rack and the steering has been much lighter since moving to the freestyle system even though my basic set-up is very similar

 

Lack of feel, this is something I'm still working on but it took some time to get used to the feel through the wheel. I guess it ties in with the lighter steering weight mentioned above. I'm going to carry a few tweaks out over winter that hopefully will improve this.

 

Improved turn in, my car has never really understeered that much but since moving to the push rod set-up the front seems to just dive into corners in a way that I've not experienced before in any Caterham. It's incredibly "pointy" which gives a huge amount of confidence when turning into a corner once you have got used to it.

 

Improved ride, on the road the car copes with bumpy roads considerably better than it ever has before (I used to run 250lb springs on Nitron's, it was pretty good but could be deflected by serious bumps). With the freestyle set-up the car just seems to cope with bumps and yet still retains high grip levels and doesn't get pushed off line.

 

 

I haven't really been on track much this year (I've covered abot 6.5K miles on the road since the system was fitted) but I'll be back out on track next year and will also be competing in the L7Club sprints so hopefully I can provide some more feedback then.

 

If anyone in the SE area would like to have a look or have a run in my car let me know and I'm sure we could sort something out, overall I think the system has been a significant improvement and would recommend it. However it's not cheap!

 

Oh and the Freestyle system also uses spherical joints throughout which I suspect is some of the reason it's not cheap. One side effect of the design is that it's very easy to change the camber, useful for a sprinter like myself who needs to run very different settings for road and sprint tyres.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

 

Edited by - rgrigsby on 19 Nov 2008 23:44:39

[I.Mupferit]

Willie, there is no point me attempting to dignify your first comment with any sort of response, however....................

 

By all means give the guy some feedback or 'stuff' to think about, but to avoid confusion please keep it factual rather than stating your own flawed beliefs as fact. If you would like further information regarding the heat tolerance of dampers then can I suggest you speak to the people at Nitron or AVO who will, I am certain, be pleased to advise.

 

I actually felt very positive about the dampers and suspension fitted to my car and would echo all the other positive comments from people who have also owned or driven Caterhams similarly fitted. I also stand by my comment regarding the location of the dampers on the Freestyle inboard suspension having no discernible affect on the c of g in a Caterham 7. Clearly the c of g will be very marginally higher but if you honestly believe you could detect this when driving a 7 so fitted then, frankly, I would say you are delusional.

 

My point, therefore, is that if this is undetectable to the driver, then what the hell does it matter? The benefits of having this system far outweigh irrelevant side issues such as the centre of gravity perhaps being very slightly higher.

 

If you are that worried about such trivia in an already compromised design such as the 7, then why not shave your head? After all, hair must weigh something so by definition, will raise the c of g.

 

 

 

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 20 Nov 2008 10:30:42

[rgrigsby]

Just to add to Brents comments I drove my car fitted with the freestyle set-up and Avo dampers to Spain this year, I saw temperatures in the high 30's/low 40's at times and spent quite a bit of time in traffic and had no problems at all with the dampers or anything else on the car!

 

Cheers

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[Jason Plato]

I'm often worried about the cam belt melting with all that heat 😬

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia joint AO with Al

 

[Allen Payne]

I worry about the driver melting in that heat!

[rgrigsby]

cambelt ? what's that then? 😬 must be something those old fashioned engines use.

 

Cheers

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[Jason Plato]

exactly thats why I fitted a duratec with a chain

 

now my feet melt instead

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia joint AO with Al

 

[rgrigsby]

You need a shiny new bonnet exit exhaust system like mine 😳 it's reduced the footwell temperatures by a massive amount 😬

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[Willie.]

Brent,

 

Are you a politican? Re-read my first post and tell me what I said that isn't factual.

 

I consider placing the dampers behind the radiator, in the rad airflow, as a disadvantage over having them mounted outboard. No need to sigh and get all snotty about it, I did say it was in my opinion, if you disagree, fine...but no need to get on like a 3yr old; doubt that this helps Billyboy.

 

As for their position, its all marginal, and you may not detect it, but I don't like compromise, and so if I was making an inboard setup, one aim would be to keep weight as low and centered as possible, hence this is just something that I notice with the Freestyle setup. I'd hazard a guess its something that was heavily considered during design, but it would be tricky to do without making any new brackets/pickups on the chassis.

 

But, as I said before, its still the best one available at the minute.

 

Willie

p.s. Rob, have you measured castor?

[I.Mupferit]

Actually, you didn't say it was "in your opinion." Rather you stated it is a disadvantage that dampers are placed in the warm airflow from the radiator as if that is a proven fact, which it is not. Why do you view that as a disadvantage when respected manufacturers like Nitron et al do not?

 

The Freestyle inboard damper system is necessarily a compromise since it was always designed to be retro-fitted to a standard chassis. The CSR front suspension was designed with no such constraints although you don't like that setup. Fair enough, that is your prerogative.

 

I am an Engineer as well and I too dislike compromise where it can be avoided but let's face it the Caterham 7 is full of compromises which, if you want to own and drive one on the road, you must for the most part accept. There are other more modern and more focussed designs which employ fewer compromises yet even they still can not escape it completely.

 

If you dislike compromise so much then I would say don't own a 7. After 11 years of Caterham ownership, I no longer do own one as I grew tired of its many shortcomings.

 

I wasn't getting snotty at all, I was simply questioning a statement you had made but hadn't qualified by saying it was, 'in your opinion'. And whilst I was at it, I decided to take issue with your thoughts on the Freestyle dampers being mounted higher than you would like.

 

Brent

(aka Arfur Nayo)

 

Toyota power It's the future!

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 20 Nov 2008 15:31:08

[Willie.]

Brent,

 

Apologies, I had intended to write the opinion bit referring to all my waffle, not just the CSR. Guess I left it out while thinking about the next line.

 

Ok, as an engineer, do you think it is better to have a damper in cool airflow or warm airflow?

 

Willie

[CageyH]

Depends on the outside air temerature.

What is the (dis)advantage of having an outboard damper on a cold day?

 

 

Only dead fish go with the flow....!

[I.Mupferit]

Willie, as an Engineer I have to be honest and say my gut feeling would be that temperatures within the range we are probably seeing on a Caterham could affect the damper rates. However, according to those who have more expertise than you or I in this particular discipline, it does no such thing.

 

Talk to the guys at Nitron and they will soon convince you that the relatively small temperature gradients seen in this particular application are well within the design criteria used in the manufacture of their products. Nitron dampers (and other makes) are used in far more extreme situations, possibly near exhaust headers for example, in race formulae everywhere and must still operate within their design criteria.

 

I confess that I was playing with you before but, nevertheless, I still stand by the points I made and thought it was a tad misleading of you to state that it is a disadvantage to have warm air from the radiator discharging over inboard dampers. It is not.

 

In my view, the Lotus/Caterham 7 is a flawed machine in so many areas, nevertheless it does deliver in it's basic raison d'etre, which is to provide exciting and explosive performance within a reasonable budget. I enjoyed both my 7's over the term of my tenure, possibly enjoying the first car more for numerous reasons, but eventually felt I could live with it's shortcomings no longer. I simply didn't love them that much in the end and felt the time was right to move on.

 

I have a totally different 'play' car on order for now and almost certainly in the next couple of years, I will build another car. Will it be a 7? I doubt that very much, possibly for the reason mentioned and I am already formulating plans for something that, for me at least, is truer to my own engineering principles.

 

I still undersand why so many people love the 7 and having said all of the above, I remain an enthusiast of the car myself. I just don't love it the way I used to.

 

Brent

(aka Arfur Nayo)

 

Toyota power It's the future!

 

 

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 20 Nov 2008 20:44:28