Slider7 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Ok, now I know that I have a EU3 1.6 K … I have some new questions … 😳 Am planning to upgrade the power of the 1.6 K SS to (minimal) R300 levels 😬 However I don’t want to fettle with the current standard SS engine ... so I have the possibility to put the car back to factory SS specs when the time comes to sell it (here on the mainland people are generally a bit reluctant to buy tuned Caterhams). So, as a result of this, I’m looking for a spare (standard or SS) engine … coming out of a Caterham. My questions regarding this : - What capacity to go for : 1.6 K or 1.8 K ? (don’t want a VVC - my R300 had one and the sump clearance was marginal on 13” wheels) - EU2 or EU3 : can I remove my current EU3 engine and simply replace it by a EU2 engine ? - Any pitfalls when buying a used engine – things to look out for ? - What would be the best upgrade route - initial to 160/165 bhp ? Was thinking about the DVA K04 'Emerald Kit' to start with ... In the end I'm aiming for about 180/185 bhp ... TIA “Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” Antoine de Saint Exupery Edited by - Slider@7 on 29 Oct 2008 09:15:06 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Bruno, The main loom is the same for EU 2/3, however you may need to change the tacho as it's EU specific. There are all sorts of things to look for when buying a used engine. I would not want to buy a tuned K-series if I didn't know it's history - or at least knew the porson I bought it from very well. You can use a VVC engine as a base for your project. If you remove the VVC mechanism and convert to solid cams you can use the standard engine mounts. You could IE find a VVC EU3 (TF160) engine, convert to solid cams with IE Piper 270 profile, fit the roller barrel induction kit from CC and either an Emerald or an MBE ECU. In both cases you'd need a new engine loom as the Emerald is EU2, the MBE has it's own loom from CC - easy swap though. The 285H cams will give more power - and more revs. The car would still be perfectly drivable, but.... in the long the pistons will suffer. The TF160 engine has stroger pistons than all other stock engines. When that's said I've done 7k track miles with 285H cams - and TF160 pistons. /regin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slider7 Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share Posted October 29, 2008 I would not want to buy a tuned K-series if I didn't know it's history - or at least knew the person I bought it from very well. That's why I would prefer to buy a spare engine form someone on here ... Anyway, would prefer an engine that came out of a Caterham ... not a Rover or MG. Maybe this is not rational ... but this is my preference (for now). Btw, I know that the TF160 engine has stronger pistons - but when going for 180 bhp, I would opt for forged pistons anyway. But the first step is taking the power to 'only' 160/165 bhp ... So let's say I want to turn my SuperSport into a SuperSport R for now Question : why would you opt for the CC roller barrels instead of the Jenvey DTH TB's ? Another idea is to go for a ported big valve head together with an emerald but without DTH TB's : should also make around 160 bhp (depending on the cams), but the engine will still look 'standard' on the outside ... which is good for the annual technical control, since in theory, you aren't allowed to tune your engine around here I think. However ... it's clear that I need to do a lot more research before I'm engaging in such a thing. All advice more then welcome “Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” Antoine de Saint Exupery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Question : why would you opt for the CC roller barrels instead of the Jenvey DTH TB's ? Because as far as I know your bureaucracy is even worse than ours, and the Caterham roller barrels have "Caterham" written on them The EU3 160BHP engine is available from CC too, so is the MBE and loom. All you need to source from third party is the cam and blanking kit. I would honestly expect the pistons to be good for 180BHP without problems unless you keep revs above 16k continuously... ish.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil.cavanagh Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I did the trophy 160 engine conversion to solid 285H cams & CC rollerr barrels. 18 months ago. This is kicking out 189 odd bhp and is rev limited to 7800. It has done 2 sprint seasons, and 5000+ road miles with a few track days in there to with no issues so far. I really wouldn't worry about going for forged pistons unless you are planning on going above 190bhp. Spend the money instead on a dry-sump system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stationary M25 Traveller Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 " ... revs above 16k ... " Wow - that's some engine !!! 😳 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 the eu3 pistons are weak link so these will need replacing at anything above std supersport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 EU3VVC with a Mems remap and RBTBS (Supersport-R) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Dave, the TF160 pistons are a LOT stronger than every other stock K-series piston. " ... revs above 16k ... " -> intended "pun" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I really wouldn't worry about going for forged pistons unless you are planning on going above 190bhp. Spend the money instead on a dry-sump system. Err.. only if you have 160 pistons.. with stock pistons you need to be concerned over 7000 and over 160BHP. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 mav, Bruno said he did not want a VVC - otherwise this would have been exactly what I'd have suggested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Support Team Shaun_E Posted October 30, 2008 Support Team Share Posted October 30, 2008 VVC + roller barrels (or Jenveys)+ std engine mounts = same sump clearance as any other K series. VVC is a good starting point as it has bigger valves than the normal K16 head. Yellow SL #32 - member of Drowned Rat Racing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Plato Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 std unported ms2 / vvc head + tottle doddies + ecu + pistons gets my vote and allows future upgrades but not a "cheap" upgrade by any means, all this is driven by what your budget is. also consider changing to a duratec engine and selling all the K series stuff - a big step I know but a wise one certainly to consider before you throw £1000's at the K series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Sump clearance will be unaffected surely. The block / sump / head etc is all the same dimension... No need for a lower mount for the VVC - R as the Plenum is replaced with RBTBS - no issue with bonnet clearance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mav Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Oh, and the VVC CAN be Dry-sumped... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 mav, the RHS engine mount is lower on a VVC installation as the engine is taller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slider7 Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 As stated before ... I'm a bit relectunt to go the VVC route. My R300 had a VVC and the sump clearance was a real nightmare ... BUT, if a VVC can be mounted with the standard engine mounts and the sump clearance is the same as with the non-VVC K's, then this might be an option after all. However, budget to go to 160/165 BHP is (only) around 2.5k ... but this needs include a spare engine : mission impossible ??? Btw, I like the RBTB's 🥰 but at 1K this is blowing my budget big time ☹️ “Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” Antoine de Saint Exupery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slider7 Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Thanks for all the advice so far *thumbup* ... also consider changing to a duratec engine and selling all the K series stuff - a big step I know but a wise one certainly to consider before you throw £1000's at the K series. Not possible over here (Belgium) I'm afraid 😔 ☹️ ... it needs to stay a 1.6 K SS on paper, so fitting a Duratec would be pushing it. Even fitting DTH or RB TB's would be a risk ... and that's why I'm also considering something like the DVA K03 kit but with a VHPD or big valve head. Should also give 160/165 bhp ... but I would still need forged pistons if I want 100% peace of mind ... Please also note that the car has still be able to pass the annual technical control over here ... that's why an emerald (with the possibility of different maps) is a necessity. “Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” Antoine de Saint Exupery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powderpuff Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 The VVC-R does require the lower engine mounts so as to clear the VVC mechanism under the bonnet, but as Mav says the VVC can be drysumped so sump clearance isn't a problem...I love mine, 180bhp and RBTB noise 😬 You could I expect fit a VVC 160 with drysump within your budget staying with the standard mems for now, you'd then have a big valve head for future porting, pistons that'd go up to 190ish bhp, and a drysump that you could always swap onto another engine if you change again, all while leaving your old 1.6 under the workbench untouched. Your future upgrade routes would include converting the VVC to a VVC-R (remap the mems and fit RBTB's), or emerald / solid cams / jenveys....the menu of options is wide. The name's Puff, Powder Puff N7XTC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slider7 Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share Posted October 31, 2008 Mmm ... why go for a VVC (head) ... needs a conversion to solid cams whereas the VHPD (head) doesn't Any downsides on using a VHPD head (with an emerald) on a 1.6 or 1.8 bottom end with forged pistons ??? Questions, questions, questions ... 😬 “Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” Antoine de Saint Exupery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 The VHPD heads are becoming rare as rocking horse d***' Hence the VVC head, which as similar valves and ports, will be a far cheaper option. OK, not quite as good looking, but it works a treat. If you fancu a go you're welcome to pop up to me to have a hoon in my car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slider7 Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share Posted October 31, 2008 Regin : YHM “Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” Antoine de Saint Exupery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rj Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Slider@7 Yhm back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slider7 Posted November 2, 2008 Author Share Posted November 2, 2008 “Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” Antoine de Saint Exupery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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