ashaughnessy Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Moving the alternator and rewiring with a new loom shouldn't be necessary - a standard alternator and loom should be fine, unless there is something drastically different about your car. First step is identify where the current drain is and restore to correct operation. Rewiring the whole car just to fix one short circuit sounds like a drastic solution! Anthony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted September 11, 2008 Author Share Posted September 11, 2008 Just tried taking the fuses out to see what stops the drain. The first one was a worry...the immobilizer. I removed the fuse and the immobilizer still flashes. I know they keep flashing for a while after being disconected, but this just keeps going. As it is an aftermarket one I guess it wasnt wired through the correct fuse. I tried a few more fuses, but no change. Then I removed the fairly thick red lead to the alternator (at the battery end) and the power drain stopped immediately. The Auto electrician said he had checked out the alternator and it was fine......but.... Having now missed my 3 day blat round France (the others are on the ferry now) I have booked to visit Raceline over the weekend. Hi Mick, the alternator does have 3 connections plus the thick red lead. One of the connections is the red jumper lead you mentioned. The alternator is bolted in by only 2 bolts out of 3 as the steering column fouls where the 3rd bolt should be...I think it is time to get some serious advice. If the alternator has 3 bolts, surely they are there for a reason.... If you can't fit the third bolt, perhaps a modified alternator or a Raceline alternative is a far better answer Thanks very much guys, you have lead me straight to the problem. It is the alternator/ alternator wiring. Going for a lie down..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Pete McEwen will sort it out. Might be a good idea to get him to check & tidy as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted September 12, 2008 Author Share Posted September 12, 2008 I wish I could get the car over to show Peter, but have sent lots of pictures. Once it is out of the car, is there a test I can do on the existing alternator that will confirm that it is faulty please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 From: here "Make sure all the accessories on your car are turned off (lights, radio etc.) and then rev up the cars engine to a fast idle (say 2000-2500 rpm). Set the Voltmeter to the DC scale and measure the voltage across the battery terminals - red lead of the voltmeter on the positive terminal, black on the negative. You will need someone to rev the engine whilst you connect the meter to the battery. With the engine at a fast idle, the voltage on the meter should read around 14 volts (13.5 to 14.4). The alternator needs to generate a larger voltage than the battery's rated voltage to overcome the internal resistance of the battery. The current needed to recharge the battery would not flow at all if the alternator output voltage was the same. The larger the difference between the alternator output and the battery voltage, then the quicker the battery will charge. So as you can imagine, if your car is quite old and the alternator and the battery are too, problems can occur with the battery getting enough charge and making the car more difficult to start and less reliable. If the reading on the volt meter is less than 12 volts then you may have a failed alternator." Really if it passes this test it's working. However over time the brushes will wear & possibly break up. The brushes can be replaced & I've had this done by these guys.. The regulator/diode pack is also replaceable but at some point one has to think of a new alternator if it's seen a lot of service & heat. Testing out of the car is not feasable unless one has equipment to "spin it up" so to speak. I suppose one could measure the resistance of the windings, & the function of the diode pack, but I wouldn't have a clue as to the correct figures. Why not ask Pete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 One other thing has just occurred to me: If you have the latest Caterham gauge, with an LED as the ignition light, then there will be some more complex circuitry to allow this to work. LED's only work with current applied one way & also present as a v v small resistance. So another resistor will be used to allow it to work as an ignition light. You also mention that the wiring was professional but it doesn't look neat. It sounds like an enthusiastic amateur did it & maybe some of the basics haven't been adhered to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted September 12, 2008 Author Share Posted September 12, 2008 Thanks Mick, The auto electrician did a test on the alternator charging and it is fine. It is also quiet and free running. We tested it under load, and if anything the voltage across the battery increased. That is a very valid point about the LED ignition light. I just removed the alternator from the car and took it to a car parts place. They had difficulty identifying it, but found the right one in the end. £158 + vat. My alternator definately works. The problem is a battery drain when switched off. Is there perhaps a diode or another component in it, which, if it fails could cause this? Hopefully there must be some sort of a leakage test???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 To be honest an alternator either works, ie charges, or it doesn't. However there can be a twilight period, when failing, when it will charge one minute & then not the next. I think your current drain is down to the alternator not being wired correctly as evidenced by this Then I removed the fairly thick red lead to the alternator (at the battery end) and the power drain stopped immediately. However did you also remove any other leads from the positive battery terminal? Because if you did it's not surprising the current drain stopped as then nothing was connected to the battery! So you must check that that all the wiring to the alternator is correct: So: 1. Lead to the ignition warning light. 2. Is there 12 v present on the other side of the ignition warning light when the ignition is turned on. Whe'll call this the 1st small lead. 3. Is the 2nd small lead connected to 12v +ve & switched through the ignition? Assuming of course that this is what this terminal is for. 4. Big red lead: nothing should be jumped off here to any other terminals unless it's to the starter. Now having mentioned the starter the usual route for the big red battery lead is battery >starter>alternator. It is possible of course that the starter has an internal fault which could be draining the battery? Paul: where in W Sx are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted September 13, 2008 Author Share Posted September 13, 2008 Hi Mick, you had me worried there...I had a horrible feeling I'd done as you said and removed all the wires from the + terminal. Luckily I left them as tested, and only the red lead from the alternator is removed. Many thanks for other tests - will attempt them now. We are in Sunny Worthing - well it is at the moment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted September 13, 2008 Author Share Posted September 13, 2008 Mick, I have found a leaflet titled "Alternator Connection Duratec." The wire colours have been transposed and now match the colours of the wires to my alternator. On the alternator and on this diag there are 3 small spade terminals within a small connector, plus the thick red wire to the battery/starter. Wire 1 in the connector is a short red thin link to the thick red wire on the alternator. Wire 2 is a brown wire and on the diag is labelled as "ignition on". Wire 3 is a white wire labelled "warning light"....with a note "use earth switching relay or voltage leakage will occur". I haven't done the tests yet as will have to refit alternator first. The auto electrician said that he measured across the ignition light and it was only 4v rather than 12v. He didn't know that it was an LED, and nor did I at the time. Back to the garage!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Duratec???? Hmmmmm..... I wonder: is the alternator controlled by the ECU? If so then the wiring may/will be different to my suggestions. What has Pete McEwen said? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcNS Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Hi I have had no end of battery/alternator problems. You should check the battery is not venting otherwise it can start to fry wires and will need to be replaced A battery cut of switch would not be a bad thing to install and will help stop what ever is draining the battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted September 14, 2008 Author Share Posted September 14, 2008 I shall be visiting Pete tomorrow, and have an ex F1 engineer coming to see the car on Monday evening. i spoke to him this evening and he seems familiar with theis sort of problem. He thinks the wiring was set up for an ignition light bulb and is confident he can sort it....which is music to my ears...my friends have been texting how good their run from Caen to St Severe was. I spent all day cutting a hedge back. Hey..but it was sunny!! The immobilizer on the car is by Viper...I have never seen such a badly fitted system. It has to come out, and it wouldn't surprize me if it had something to do with the problem. The idea of a battery isolator seems a very good one. Also, I may well remove the heater - it will simplify things. I can't immagine being cold once the engine is warmed up. Just the vents should be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted September 14, 2008 Share Posted September 14, 2008 Take the scuttle off as it will make life easier getting to the underdash wiring. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted September 15, 2008 Author Share Posted September 15, 2008 Hi Mick, You are right again....it is controlled by the ford ecu. I spoke to Pete at Raceline and he knew the problem straight away. He has suggested a range of upgrades including alternator on inlet side of engine, new loom, dth throttle bodies etc etc which would transform the whole installation. As I'm due a tax rebate, I may just get Pete to sort it. He would also check out valve springs, cams, remove engine and modify passenger footwell properly. I would have my almost new Webber Alpha throttle bodies and other bits to sell to offset the cost a little, but would end up with a complete duratec R installation from one supplier. I've spent approaching £20k now and the darned thing didn't even get me to the ferry!! I do really like the car though and want to stick with it. The F1 guy will wait to see if I go Raceine's route before looking at it if I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Glad you've got progress. Pete is a really nice guy; a bit laid back so you may need to ensure you agree a time-frame for all this. However the winter's coming................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted September 18, 2008 Author Share Posted September 18, 2008 One step forward...two back. Whether I do it now or later, have decided to put the alternator on the inlet side. That means re-routing all the hoses. Raceline's solution needs a radiator with connections on opposite side, so cost is increasing...and I am advised to change flywheel too.....so....decided to take a flyer. Called the (very helpful) people who fitted a viper immobilizer for advice, as I had decided to remove it and fit a battery isolator switch for simplicity. He remembered the guy I bought the car from very well, because after fitting the new Viper sytem the chap connected jump leads to the battery the wrong way round and blew the immobilizer up. He thought that maybe the alternator regulator or diodes had been damaged at the same time. Not wanting to spend £158 plus vat on a new alternator I got an identical used alternator from a local breaker at £45. Fitted it and guess what? same problem....same 0.06A drain when switched off and sometimes 4.87A. I really thought I'd found the problem, as there was an article that identified the components (diodes or regulator - forget which) as the likely problem if the ignition light doesn't come on when stopped. As the plonker connected jump leads the wrong way I guess anything could be fried...Is the loom now suspect, or would fuses have hopefully protected that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmaninshed Posted September 30, 2008 Author Share Posted September 30, 2008 Another £400 spent and the wiring has been checked out and neatened up. Changes were made to add a relay to the alternator circuit and the Immobilizer was removed. I don't understand....but it works!! Battery isolator now to be fitted. Ordered a temp sensor for the Omex ECU as we found a cable but no sensor. Actually went for a drive....brilliant!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Fantastic news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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