Lazy starting

[Setok]

Recently I've found that my 7 is getting more reluctant to start (Crossflow). Whereas it would used to fire on my third go, without exception, now I find it can take me at least 5 and I have been worrying if I'll drain it and be stuck. OK the weather has been chillier, but nothing seriously cold, yet. I suspect the battery might have seen better days. As I'm still a newbie to 7s and even cars, I'm not quite sure what to replace it with, but is it worth the bother of cleaning battery connectors or adding gel to them or something? Once it starts it does run fine and doesn't stall, which to me would seem to point to electricity flowing OK.

 

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Kristoffer Lawson

[duffym]

Hi , my seven did this 2 winters ago and I replaced the Banner battery with a gel one from the Powervamp range , a PC680 I think.

Problem solved instantly and permanently , great battery

[ashaughnessy]

I presume you have weber carburettors and a mechanical fuel pump? If so, you will find it takes longer to start it if you leave it longer between runs. E.g. leave it a day and it will be fine, leave it a week and it will be harder. I've always assumed this to be caused by a linear relationship between how long it takes the mechanical pump to replenish the carburettor float chamber with fuel.

 

I got new carburettors a while ago and found this problem considerably reduced and I put this down to more effective seals stopping the fuel evaporating, but now I've had them for a while the problem is going back towards how it used to be.

 

This is all theory though, I can't confirm my diagnosis. Also, I'd expect a car with an electric fuel pump not to suffer in this way if my theory is correct.

 

By the way, I don't start by using several tries of the starter - I turn the switch and keep cranking until it starts. If I know its likely to take a long time (such as when I haven't driven it for a month) I'll use a booster battery to help the situation. Once out on the road though, restarting is always instantaneous.

 

Anthony

[6speedmanual]

Hi Kristoffer

 

It's just its way of telling you it doesn't want to go out and play until you've fixed the shudder in the steering!

 

Serious though, checking cleanliness and vaselining up your battery terminal is always good practice.

 

Is the engine cranking over slower? or is it still cranking at the usual speed but taking longer to get the first firing?

 

These would help determine if it is a failing battery or a fuel / ignition issue.

 

Hope you and MP keeping well.

 

cheers

 

Peter

 

 

 

6SpeedManual

*tongue*There's no such thing as too much BHP per Ton 😬

[John Ryan]

I have just changed from a mechanical to an electric fuel pump, and starting is miles better. Just turn on the ignition, wait for the clicking to stop, and off it goes!

 

Setok, when you are turning it over, is it turning over slowly, or spinning but not starting? If it's the latter, it's worth checking out the major earth leads. They can fray inside and fail. A clue is them being quite hot (Be careful, obviously!)

[Setok]

I think I'd describe it as labouring to turn it. It's always been a bit like that on my first and second go, as if places are stiff (which is true, of course). Now it's just continuing for several more goes.

 

Btw is it better to keep the lights on when turning the engine, or off? I heard someone say it's better to have them on, but I'm not sure why that would be true.

 

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Kristoffer Lawson

[millsn]

check the condition of your cables. Earth connections from engine (starter motor) to chassis often fail over time but unnotivceably. Similar issue with +cable too, get any replacement cables made up so they're well sealed at the ends

[Setok]

Wouldn't bad earth also cause problems when starting at any point, or possibly stalling? Once I do get it started it will restart without issue.

 

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Kristoffer Lawson

[6speedmanual]

Hi Kristoffer

 

Lights OFF. They are just taking current from the battery and you want it all to go to the starter motor.

 

If it is turning over sluggishly or "labouring" the battery is probably a bit flat and or not holding a charge.

 

Sluggish cranking is bad news: Mech fuel pump lifts fuel slower. Less air flow to draw through carbs and atomise fuel, weaker ignition spark to ignite air/fuel charge in cylinders.

 

I suggest:

 

1. Check electrolyte level. If below the top of the lead plates, top up with distilled water or better with real battery acid which can be bought from motor factors or some car dealers' parts departments. Top up the cells until the plates are just covered or until the acid is at the level of any indicator bars visible in the cells. This may fix it.

 

2. If the electrolyte level is ok, test the battery by any of the following methods

a. Use a hygrometer with a float calibrated to acid density for batteries ( car accessory shop) this may show up a dead cell (wrong electrolyte density relative to others. float shows "low" or "discharged" on some but not all cells. This will cause the battery to self-discharge)

b. Put on a battery charger overnight and see if the battery is more lively turning engine over next morning as soon as battery charger is disconnected.

c. get a car garage to test it using an electronic battery tester such as a MidTronics. this gives a computer printout on battery condition.

 

Another thing to do to ensure it is not anything else wrong other than the battery is to jump start the 7 from a vehicle with a known stonking battery output. if the starting behavior is back to what you would normally expect, then it is most probably just lack of battery performance killing your start up routine.

 

Check your charging system.... either:

a. Basic test for this is to put headlamps on with engine at idle. When you rev the engine up, the lights should get a bit brighter. Not very scientific but gives a clue if the alternator is doing something or nothing!

b. get the alternator output checked at an auto electrician.

 

Need to get it fixed soon or she won't start for your -15 deg Blats!

 

Peter

 

 

6SpeedManual

*tongue*There's no such thing as too much BHP per Ton 😬

[Setok]

Thanks, Peter, for your tips. I'll have a look at what I can find as soon as I have a moment (working for a startup is tough on time).

 

The headlights do get brighter when revving so the alternator is definitely doing something. And yeah, want to have it working perfectly for winter!

 

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Kristoffer Lawson

[Terry Field]

Kris,

 

What starting procedure are you using?

 

Assuming your battery is Ok, try pumping the loud pedal about five times, put your foot on the clutch (to reduce the load on the battery) and fire it up. As said above, the colder it is and the longer it is since you started it, the more 'pumps' it will need. After 3 weeks of not using it, I routinely pump the throttle six or seven times to drag the fuel through the system?

 

Also a good time to check the plugs and HT leads before th ereal cold stuff arrives.

Terry

[ashaughnessy]

If the carburettors aren't full of fuel then I can't see how pumping the throttle will help, as I can't see that pumping the throttle will drag any fuel through the system. Surely pumping the throttle will simply take fuel out of the float chamber, opening the valve, but you need the fuel pump to be turning in order to replenish the float chamber. I think that difficult starting after prolonged lack of use is caused by lack of fuel in the carb, which can only be cured by a) fitting an electric fuel pump or b) cranking the engine to run the mechanical fuel pump until it has refilled the carburettor (or perhaps c - somehow preventing the fuel from evaporating in the first place).

 

You can verify my theory by comparing how easy it is to start your car from cold when it has a) been just a couple of hours since it last ran (should start instantly) and b) when it has been idle for a week (should take a few turns before starting) and c) it has been idle for a month (will need continuous cranking to start). In the latter case, a booster battery will help as it will get the pump turning faster and will avoid draining the car battery.

 

Cars with electric fuel pumps wouldn't suffer this problem, neither would cars with fuel injection (I suspect).

 

Anthony

PS: I routinely use a booster battery when starting, as I don't use my car much and it usually needs considerable cranking before it starts to catch.

PPS: This is all a theory, based on observation. I'm not an engineer.

 

Edited by - ashaughnessy on 3 Sep 2008 17:05:27

[Dee Pee]

John Ryan,

 

Any pics of your new electric fuel pump installation in lieu of mechanical? Am thinking of doing the same on my 1.7 X flow to help starting etc.

 

 

[Setok]

terrfield, that is pretty much exactly the procedure I use. Except for winter months it would usually fire up on its third go. Now, after not being in use for a couple of days, it will take me at least five times to get it to start. Pumping the throttle between every attempt.

 

If it hasn't been in use for a couple of hours it will fire up easily, but the next day can be a battle again. This is markedly different from how it behaved before. It was never an easy starter, but not exactly troublesome either (except for that one chilly winter morning when it just refused to start without jump cables). Now I'm truly worrying I will deplete the battery some critical morning.

 

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Kristoffer Lawson

[Setok]

Well, the solution was the simplest possible. I decided to inspect the K&N air filters and on rubbing them I noticed a really thick layer of gunk. So I wiped as much of it as I could and now the car is starting on its third attempt, just like it used to :-)

 

Time to buy a cleaning kit...

 

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Kristoffer Lawson