Tappet noise on Vauxhall XE

[Ringmeister]

I've just acquired my Caterham and have what I think is a problem with tappet noise.

 

From cold there is a lot of noise that reduces as the engine warms. By the time it is up to temperature the noise has disappeared completely, however it will after revving the engine reasonably high for a short duration (e.g. accelerating hard through a few gears) it returns and then subsides over the next few minutes.

 

I thought it may be an oil pressure problem, but having read many previous posts on the subject I'm happy it's ok (7+ bar at cold, about 2 when hot).

 

I have topped the oil level up and not surprisingly this made no difference.

 

By coincidence I had a similar problem with an old Golf; lots of tappet noise at cold that didn't seem to go away at all! I resolved this by using an engine flush and replacing the oil.

 

So, two questions:

 

1. Anyone any idea what the problem is?

2. Is using the engine flush trick worth a try?

 

The engine is a wet-sump with a baffle, has Omega pistsons and Kent cams

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Ian.

[Phil]

HI, WYNNS engine flush which comes in a 300ml can, add this to the oil in your engine when hot, the flush cleans all varnish and deposits and bonds them to your oil so as you drain it everything comes out, if you drain without using a flush you will be left with a coating of the old oil around the engine and when you fil with new oil it will do its job and pick all this up so you do not get a fresh start. With caterhams they are normaly well looked after and oil changed regularly so it does not go black, but with the engines pushed hard and running hot when they are just turned off the oil is burnt leaving a varnish type coating on metal parts stoping the oil lubricating these surfaces, hence sticky tappets.

The oil you should be using no matter what make should be a minimum of 10w/40 semi synthetic or 0w/40 or 5w40 fully synthetic. Good luck

 

 

[EFA]

A 0/40 oil will not resolve the problem.

5/40 is the minimum spec you should go for (Comma SynerG) or best Mobil 1 "Motorsport" 15/50.

 

If this does not cure the problem, the issue is likely a worn oil pump.

 

 

 

Fat Arn

Visit the K2 RUM siteid=red>

See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green>

 

[Swiss_Tony]

Just a thought

Are you sure it is the tappets?

The pistons can cause a similar noise from cold but not when hot.

 

James

 

 

Edited by - james on 9 Jun 2002 08:16:36

[paul jacobs]

Just what I was thinking James, it is because of the differential in the expansion of the ali. piston and the iron block. My car, with Omega pistons, sounds like a bag of nails for the first mile or two, once warmed through, the noise goes completely. It worried the hell out of me 'till I found out what was causing it.

 

Otherwise Arnies suggestion about the oil is VERY valid, these engines just do not like 0-40, no matter how expensive it is!

[OAP]

This could be hydralic tappets loosing oil when very hot, and not filling up again until the oil is hot again after a few miles.

 

My VX HPC suffered from this, but after a while I just stopped worring about it.

[EFA]

The piston noise is a good one - my car also suffers this problem with Cossie pistons. The bores in my engine are slightly worn (and having spent £1000+ on decent pistons I don't wish to resize - a new block is cheaper!)- I'd actually put it down to piston slap!

 

Fat Arn

Visit the K2 RUM siteid=red>

See the Lotus Seven Club 4 Counties Area Website hereid=green>

 

[Ringmeister]

Thanks for the replies guys.

 

Note: UserName is "Ringmeister" now. This was my original ID but I messed up when I typed in my email address so couldn't activate it!

 

If you're happy that adding the engine flush won't bugger anything up (especially the sump baffle), then I'll try that first.

 

I'll also put in some thicker oil (15w50) as opposed to the 5w40 SynerG that's in it now.

 

To answer James' questions "Am I sure it's tappets and not pistons?", no I'm not sure but what makes this seem unlikely is the return of the noise of giving it a dose of high revs/power. It seems logical to me that perhaps the tappets are getting pushed back down only to return to their proper position after a period of low revs.

 

On the subject of oil, I spoke to Comma the other day to try find a local supplier, which they duly informed me of. As part of the conversation I asked if there was any other oil I could add as a top-up if I couldn't get any SynerG and the guy told me "Halfords Synthetic 5w40" because they (Comma) supply this! Of course that's not to say that it is SynerG but sounds very likely to me!

 

Cheers,

 

Ian aka "Ringmeister"

 

P.S. Any of you guys go to the Nurburgring?

 

 

[Blatman]

Search the archives re. using engine flush. We discussed this at some length IIRC, and the consensus was that using these flushing products was un-necesary with the quality of modern, and regularly changed oils.

[Graham Perry]

Is it possible that the Cams have so much lift that it is beyond the limit of the hydraulic tappets to cope with them at high revs ? The noisey bit when cold could just then be put down to normal start up rattles.

 

 

[Ringmeister]

Indeed, that's one of my thoughts.

 

I spoke to a guy at Caterham today and he thought that could be it too. He also suggested cavitation.

 

We both thought the best next port of call would be Kent Cams, so watch this space!

 

Ian.

[Ringmeister]

The man from Kent Cams says "buckets".

 

The cam profile is ok with the XE engine and shouldn't rattle.

 

He said putting a thicker oil in may be worth a try and that engine flush was a waste of time.

 

Apparently the buckets in these engines have been redesigned 3 times since 1995, so it's a known failing.

 

So, the question is should I speculatively replace the buckets (£200+) or go the oil route and waste £30 that could have gone towards the buckets?!

 

Ian.

[Alex Wong1697456877]

You can modify the hydraulic tappets to make them solid. This involves sealing the oil channel in them then shimming them out. Might be a cheaper solution. My engine runs with this modification.

 

Alex Wong

www.alexwong.net

www.slipstream-trackdays.co.uk

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[Phil]

You all complain about tappet noise after thrashing your cars on the track with the result of future noises in standard use, just an opinion but I believe this is due to oil being burnt under the extreme conditions and coating the tappets making them sticky, the idea of using a quality engine flush is the fact that these help to clean away such deposits and bond them to the oil so when you drain your oil everything comes out giving you a fresh start with your new oil having nothing to emeadiately pick up.

I have found Wynns to be the best and you add this to the oil when hot and run on fast tickover for about 15 mins then drain. I would not recomend using the old style flush which replaces the oil compleately as this is just a cleaner and provides no lubrication.

 

 

[Phil]

Try this, pick ten garages inc quick fit and ask them for a price on an oil change on for example a J reg

Cavelier 1.8 SRi with 98,000miles, ask them

What oil they would use and why?

Is it a mineral, semi or fully synthetic?

what grade ie 15w40 it is?

Is this high milage for this car?

Would they recomend a fully synthetic?

Why do Castrol or the make they keep do so many different grades?

 

 

 

 

[Ben Willis]

I think Phil has a point here. My experience is exactly as he described - no noise pre-track day, noise immediately after. The noise went away when hot but was very noticable when cold. A couple of weeks later it has totally disappeared again. My trusted engine guru suggested the same sticky tappet idea or some dirt getting lodged in one. Clearly wasn't anything more serious or I have a very clever self fixing engine.

 

Relieved,

Ben

[Phil]

The ten garages idea is to prove a point that most people who sell or repair cars do not have a clue as to what oil does and or what spec to use and why.

I was in the same situation for many years until I read a leaflet from Castrol describing the many problems an oil has to cope with, this started me off asking a lot of questions with the reps for the oil companies and suprisingly they did not know a lot. My best friend is a good mechanic fully trained with a natural talent for sorting problems others have stuggled with but has not got a clue when it comes to oil saying fully synthetic, to thin makes your engine rattle, and because of his position and respect many people follow his word and tell others, this seems to follow suite as an engine builder/engineer with many years behind him/her has never had training on oil, just a limited knowledge of what he/she has used or has stated an opinion on and will not back down, unfortunately as a nobody to most of you some of my opinions are ignored, I never claim to know everything and I am willing to learn and change my opinions with a valid argument.

Quick fit for example do an oil change for £10 and call there oil something like wonder lube, upon asking the manager what grade it was he said the Best, the best what, he had to check, turned out to be ungraded 20w50 oil not recomended for anything.

A Lotus/Caterham garage said I could use a good multi grade or a synthetic in my 1700ss but did not know what a good multi grade was just repeating a name ie Castrol but Castrol do several multi grades.

It seems the answer is non descipt still leaving you to make the choice yourself.

 

 

[Ringmeister]

Latest update:

 

1. Changed the cam followers (hyraulic tappets) with new ones from Kent Cams.

 

This has resolved the problem with the noisy tappets at startup. The rattle lasts only a few seconds unlike the 2-3 miles before. One of the folloers seemed dodgy in that the "springy" bit wasn't springy.

 

The other problem remains; tappets noisy when the engine is hot at the engine revved to 4k+ for a short time. The noise fades away over a period of 30 seconds.

 

2. Changed to 20w50 oil (i.e. "thicker"), made no difference.

 

So, my next port of call has to be the oil pump I think.

 

Anyone any other thoughts?!

 

Please!!!!

 

Ian.

 

[stevefoster]

I got noisy tappets after my 5th race with a wet sump.

But this was after an exteme thrashing. Oil pressure was never lower than 3.5 bar and my 35psi light never came on. Oil temp was only up to 100 deg on a calibrated sensor.

The noise dissapeared with cool oil.

No noise at start up.

For race 6 and 7 I had the dry sump fitted. Large tall tank with

return pipe that spirals into the tank to remove aeration.

No tappet noise and better oil pressure than before, now 4 bar.

Even when hot.

 

I think I was getting crank splash and all other types of aeration on the wet sump even though the oil pressure was not surging.

 

Steve

My racing pics hereid=red>

Hants (North) and Berkshire area club site

hereid=red>

 

[Phil]

please, please, please remove the 20w/50 oil from your engine, it is thicker as you put it because of a lack of refinement, it still contains loads of impurities which help to brake down the oil quickly and has a lack of additives to stop it being burnt and chewed by your modern engine, this oil has only been refined to a certain point and no further as it is not recomended for any cars these days so there is no point. it will also give you extra engine wear on start up as it is slow moving to get to the top of the engine to lubricate and pump up hydraulics.

Engine oil burns at about 92 deg C and your engine goes wel above 100 deg C the additives are designed to stop this happening less so in an old style oil.

 

 

[Ringmeister]

Whoaaa, Phil!

 

It's coming out tomorrow to be replaced with 5w40 Syner-G. The cheap stuff was just a test, and at £10 for 5 litres worth a punt.

 

If the brand new Syner-G dosen't do the trick then a new improved oil pump is the next stop and after that lose the hydraulic followers.

 

Geez, what a malarky.

 

Ian.

 

P.S. Thanx for the replies :-)

 

P.P.S Still assuming the noise is tappets!