Blokko Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 My 52 plate ex-Academy 1600 k has recently developed a misfire. Only occurs when the car is up to temperature and was initially intermittent, but is now more frequent. Started off down the plugs / leads / coils route. Leads were out of stock but things were just as bad having changed the plugs. This problem first occurred when I was running low-ish on fuel. I filled the car to brimming - 28 litres or thereabouts (so not running on fumes) and the problem went away. Things were fine until I got about half way down the tank when the misfire reappeared. Initially only apparent when up to temperature, but as time went on the misfire stated to kick in a little sooner and happened at anything above idle (whereas initially it was not apparent if I used light throttle). With the new plugs in today the misfire was there pretty much from the off. Went to the petrol station and again filled the car with around 28 litres of 95RON unleaded. Misfire was there for a couple of hundred yards but then disappeared totally - I run for about 15 miles in a mix of speeds and engine loads with no problem at all. My thinking is to not bother with leads or coils for now and concentrate on the fuel system instead. No noticeably unusual noise coming from the fuel pump. I guess a fuel filter change might be a good place to start. Anybody suggest what else I should be looking at? -----Steve - Orange and Black ex Academy - now looking at things from a slightly different perspective. Edited by - Blokko on 27 Jul 2008 18:12:39 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie. Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I'm no genius, but I'd be inclined to suspect the coil...or at least check it. If the filter was clogged enough to cause a stutter at low revs, you would expect it to also cause a restriction at higher revs. Coils tend to give up as they get up to temperature. Try a swap with a mate for a quick check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokko Posted July 20, 2008 Author Share Posted July 20, 2008 Thanks Opposite Lock. By chance I’m looking after a friends 7 - I’ll wait for him to get back off holiday before I go plundering his car for parts though. I can’t understand though why plugs, HT leads or coils would behave differently running a full tank of fuel as oppose to one that is 4/5ths empty. This is the second time now that I have filled the tank and the problem has temporarily gone away - just seems too much of a coincidence to me. -----Steve - Orange and Black ex Academy - now looking at things from a slightly different perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Have you tried running the car in a garage with the bonnet off and the lights off just to see if you have any problems? Hairline cracks can be found this way. FreeRange7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokko Posted July 20, 2008 Author Share Posted July 20, 2008 I’ll try to run the car in the dark tomorrow to see if anything shows up. When my mate Phil gets back from hols on Thursday I’ll try his coils and HT leads to see if that makes any difference. -----Steve - Orange and Black ex Academy - now looking at things from a slightly different perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markiebabes Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Steve, i would try fuel filter as well may have a bit of cr4p stuck in it and causing the intermittent fault when i had my misfire i went through all the normal bits BTW have you tried the senders ? brown Temp one on water rail and green air temp(not sure where on yours it may be) worth a go misfires suck hope you sort it 😬 Mark R400 MW 203 bhp of pure fun ( more so with Aero fitted ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie. Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I can't see how fuel level could be related to the misfire. All the engine sees is fuel coming to the injectors, either the pump is either pumping fuel or its not, level shouldn't affect anything. Misfires can be hard to find...especially intermittant ones. Trying in the dark is good advice, I've found faults that way before. Can you describe the misfire a bit? It might help someone who has had similar before. Was it a misfire (Like the car still revs, but is off beat), or a flat spot (Where the car seems to choke and go to die, then maybe go again)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboylaw Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Is the fuel pump on the way out? Just a thought but if it cures when the tank is full then it could be a pumping issue. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokko Posted July 22, 2008 Author Share Posted July 22, 2008 Hard to describe the symptoms, but I’ll try – - Apparent on acceleration under anything more than the lightest throttle - Hits right across the rev range - Loss of power but can still accelerate, albeit at a slower rate than normal - Loss of power followed very quickly by return, leading to a very juddery ride - Seems to be across all cylinders rather than just 1 - Lots of ‘spluttering’ from exhaust, but not popping loudly Having put about another 15 miles on the clock last night I run the engine with the bonnet off and the coils / HT leads exposed – couldn’t see any sparking anywhere. The problem did return, but was less noticeable and more intermittent than previously. Mark’s post got me thinking. Back in April (about 2.5k miles ago) I hit a piece of builders’ rubble in the road. This caused some minor scars on the sump, but I hadn’t noticed until doing this investigation that the oil filter also has a bit of a knock. If you work forward from the oil filter towards the front of the car you come across a couple of pipes that lead off to the anti cav and return from the engine and then hit a circular contraption (sorry, no idea what it is called) with an electrical connector that I presume feeds back to the ECU with oil temp and maybe pressure???? Anyhow, could this bit of kit have a part in my misfire woes? -----Steve - Orange and Black ex Academy - now looking at things from a slightly different perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Ford Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Corroded contacts in the HT leads is most likely. Two of them can be got at easily, two can't. For the ones that can be got at easily, take them apart, remove the springs and clean everything up carefully with a wire brush and/or emery paper. See if that fixes it. The fuel level shouldn't have any effect on these but otherwise it fits the symptoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S47zz Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Had a similar problem, though this may not apply to your car, my fuel pickup pipe had come loose inside the tank, when tank was full the car run OK because the pipe was covered in fuel, however when fuel level droppped the pick was only sucking up the fuel intermitantaly has it sloshed around in the tank. My car has an intank fuel pump, if you have an external fuel pump then this is not your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboylaw Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 This definitely sounds like a fuel starvation issue and could be pump/pickup related, it does not sound electrical to me as all works fine when it is full and then gets progressively worse as the fuel is used, it is across the rev range and is worse under acceleration. Check the pump and pickup pipe as a priority. Hope this helps, Jon ----------------------------------- 1992 Xflow - Live Axle (Ford), Now featuring a Megajolt 3D ingnition.. Now looking for an LSD.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markiebabes Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Steve, don't think it could be that,if it's like mine, it is a remote oil pressure sender (circular contraption with braided hose to it ) i have a spare set of leads, dizzy cap and rotor arm you could try ( will be at Silverstone on saturday if you would like me to bring them along to try ? ) but it does sound more like a fuel related problem. Mark R400 MW 203 bhp of pure fun ( more so with Aero fitted ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Ford Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 dizzy cap and rotor arm On a K? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markiebabes Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 My "K" has 😬 😬 VVC don't i think Mark R400 MW 203 bhp of pure fun ( more so with Aero fitted ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Durrant Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 All EU2 K series have a dizzy and rotor arm unless the owner has fitted a coil pack Mark D Comp Sec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokko Posted July 23, 2008 Author Share Posted July 23, 2008 Right, back from London so chance to pick up on this saga… Mark, many thanks for your offer re bringing across bits to Silverstone . I’m hoping to be at Loton on Saturday (travelling in the tin top though 😔) and anyhow my car is EU3. You mentioned in an earlier post about senders. As I mentioned earlier the oil pressure sender may have got a knock about 2.5k miles ago Does the electrical connector from this bit of kit feed back to the ECU or just to the gauges? If it does go back to the ECU, could it cause the problem that I’m experiencing? The oil pressure gauge still seems to be working fine… Mal, JonBoyLaw, the fuel pump I have looks to be this one. Not so sure now that it is fuel starvation as the problem is back (though not as bad as when the fuel tank is near empty) and I’ve only covered about 40 miles since filling the tank. I have to say that I’m now getting brassed off with the whole affair and I’m thinking of going to a local garage to see if they can get it sorted in time for the Fish & Chip Shop run. Steve - Orange and Black ex Academy - now looking at things from a slightly different perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markiebabes Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Steve, sorry Eu3 the oil sender.i think this is not the cause your misfire(unless it dislodged something else ?) as it just goes to the gauge ☹️ can you reset your TPS ? may be worth a try ? turn ignition on depress throttle fully 7 times (what a nice number - so much nicer than the 3 for the EU2 engine ) turn ignition off start car misfires are a real B45terd to find sorry i couldn't help further ☹️ Mark R400 MW 203 bhp of pure fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboylaw Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Another thing you might want to look for is any air geting in past the TB, look for any split pipes or cracks or loose clips that may allow air to be drawn in. As the condition is getting worse and now not really dependant upon the fules situation is could be something expanding with temperature and allowing air in to the intake and leaning out the mixture. Yet one more avenue to follow.... these things take time etc... Edited to ad: Also look at the crank/cam sensors /wires... if they are missreading the engine revs it will throw out the timing. Jon Edited by - jonboylaw on 23 Jul 2008 23:48:32 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokko Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 I’ll try a reset. For what its worth I’m also contemplating changing the fuel filter but that is probably as far as I’m going to take things. Spoke to Kia Wolverhampton this morn (ex Rover dealership). They still have the expertise / kit to look at K series engines so I think I’m going to get them to hook up their computa and do a diagnostics run – presume that this is still an option on a K fitted to a 7? -----Steve - Orange and Black ex Academy - now looking at things from a slightly different perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millsn Posted July 24, 2008 Share Posted July 24, 2008 fuel pipe possibly collapsing when warmed through? Similar thing with any vacuum system fitted to the car? Throttle pot (if fitted)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboylaw Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Blokko, Any update ? Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokko Posted July 27, 2008 Author Share Posted July 27, 2008 Spent most of the day tinkering with the car with much needed assistance from my mate Phil. Went out for a spin first thing to show him the symptoms of the problem then did a bit of a detour on the way back to a motor factors to get some bits. Back at base we checked over the car checking electrical connectors etc were fully in place. Moved on to an oil change and then slotted in a new fuel filter (trip back to the motor factors ‘cos the fuel filter I got from an ex Rover dealer had the wrong thread on both ends). Fired the car up. Stopped the engine immediately as it was leaking a bit of fuel. Banged everything up a bit tighter - seemed to be holding ok so we went for a 40 mile blat…. … and (so far) no sign of the problem ❗ Early days yet and I want to get some more miles on the clock (including running the fuel down to near empty - which is when the problem was most noticeable). I know that it is not best practice to change 3 things at once - but we were up against it time wise. I’ll post again in a few days when I’ve done some more testing. Many thanks to everyone who’s posted with suggestions on this topic *thumbup* Steve - Orange and Black ex Academy - now looking at things from a slightly different perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonboylaw Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Great news! And the cheapest parts to replace *thumbup* Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokko Posted August 8, 2008 Author Share Posted August 8, 2008 Well, I thought I’d spoken too soon when I said that the problem appeared to have gone away. Got through 200 miles, but then the problem started to appear again, albeit less noticeably than before. Filled the car with petrol and the problem is now coming back almost as bad as ever, which is an 🙆🏻 because we are meant to be spending next weekend hooning around Wales (Evo Triangle on Sat, Aber for the Fish & Chip shop run on Sun). Spoke to a guy at a Rover breakers yard (they also do a lot of maintenance and service work – booked up for 4-6 weeks solid). When I explained the symptoms to him he said it was almost certainly fuel contamination – possibly water in the fuel. Is there any way I can test for this? I guess that the only option is to empty the tank fully to get rid of any contaminant – is fuel tank out a difficult job? Steve - Orange and Black ex Academy - now looking at things from a slightly different perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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