Four pointers

[Al Duncan]

It's an interesting debate but the one thing that really gets me ragin'mad.gif is when you pass a tin top with the Mum and or Dad up front with thier seat belts on and the small child bouncing about the back seat unrestrained.

 

They are generally sporting a "baby on board" sticker as well!

 

Andy cheers for the offer but the order is in to caterham

already and we are getting 4 Pnters (a compromise I know) and FIA roll bar.

 

We just have to sit and wait for caterham to build the kit so that we can get busy teeth.gifteeth.gifteeth.gifteeth.gifteeth.gifteeth.gifteeth.gifteeth.gifteeth.gifteeth.gif

 

[scooby dooby doo]

even with a helmet the cage / roll bar should really be covered in an impact absorbing foam. And it ALL needs to be covered - you and the belts can stretch a LOT in a collision. plumbers insulation foam is barely any better than useless as well.

 

Dave Hooper - North London

dmch2@lineone.net

[murph7355]

I was offering you Anthony's wink.gif I love mine.

 

Word to the wise - have a chat with Caterham and ask them if they will please fit the Willans type harnesses that have the d-rings on the lap part of the belt (to take "monkey tail" 6pt straps).

 

I don't believe they cost any more than normal ones and they give you the option of a very simple, quite cheap and very comfy 6pt upgrade later.

 

Also try and make sure they sell you ones with 3" shoulder straps. I know some people find them marginally less comfortable (than the 2" variety), but they'll be a damn sight more comfy in an accident.

 

You know you don't have to do all 6pts up in use (especially with monkey tails as they sit flat with no buckle)....but as you've ordered 4pts, please make sure when you're using them that the lap part is across your lap, and not half way up your abdomen.

 

Peter - couldn't agree more.

 

I also believe that the idea of making cars silent inside, with massaging air-con chairs, cruise and distance control and colour TVs is a big mistake. Make people realise that going at 80mph is actually pretty quick and they'll be less likely to do silly speeds. Make 120 feel like 60 and everyone will do 120, whether they have the car control of a gibbon or not.

[Phil]

The main reason apart from safety for buying a second 6 pointer is so that the passenger can enjoy the same feeling as myself being part of the car and not like a pea in a rattle bouncing independantly over every bump, if they don't like the belts then they don't get a ride. Only had my car three months and I still have not been above 85mph.

Thanks for the advice on using the lap part properly as mine was to high as well, now adjusted correctly.

 

 

[Morls]

I'm afraid I'm finding myself siding with that controversial harness hating Mr ashaughnessy.

 

Despite having four point harnesses, and thinking that they're a bloody good idea (in theory), the reality is they don't actually get used much for short journeys.

 

Yes...I know this is double daft, and that statistically most accidents happen near home, but....

 

maybe a rollercoaster style over shoulder bar could be an option for the really lazy amongst usquestion.gif

 

Still no excuse for crashing in car parks thowink.gif

 

Mark

[scooby dooby doo]

i wouldn't feel right driving a seven witha 3pt harness. it just doesn't seem right! smile.gif

 

Dave Hooper - North London

dmch2@lineone.net

[murph7355]

There's plenty of time for being lazy when you're dead or laid up in hospital. A state of being that could well be brought on sooner than desired if you keep insisting on not taking the extra 15secs or so to do your harnesses up properly.

 

Do you guys still have standard roll bars too?

 

And so endeth the public safety broadcast.

[scooby dooby doo]

is this where i try and sell my FIA rollbar (Which will be replaced with a cage in the next few months) ?

 

Dave Hooper - dmch2@lineone.net

[ashaughnessy]

I have an FIA bar and six point harness. The car was nicer to drive on the road when it had the normal bar and three point seat belt.

 

I wonder if owners of old sportscars and classics, that don't have any roll protection, agonise in a similar way about their safety or if they just take it as part of the experience? Also, very old racing cars don't need roll bars (do they even need seatbelts?) to race. Do these people worry about their safety?

 

When Caterham finally fit air-bags to sevens, will we in the future be saying "What do you mean you haven't got an air bag, don't you care about your safety" (and substitute air-bag for any other device that might be dreamt up in the future).

 

I don't like the way that the harness/fia-bar thing is made so black and white. Yes, I'm sure they're safer but if you want to be safe, don't drive a car.

I think I better stop now, this could be one of those endless debates without any right or wrong answer.

Anthony

[scooby dooby doo]

i've seen a histroc race with a mixture of US owned cars (have to have rollbars, harnesses etc) and UK owned cars. An accident on the start line through one driver 30 ft into the air and he appeared to land with his back accross a solid wall. Luckily there were some tyres there and he recoved. A few inches either way and he would be paralysed or dead.

 

There's no way I'd EVER want to race a car with no protection. With an old car on the road with no belts / less safety equipement you leave a much bigger at all times, just in case.

 

Modern racecars don't use airbags - they were invented because many people don't wear seatbelts on the road....

 

Dave Hooper - dmch2@lineone.net

[Graham Sewell]

Per travelled mile, you are more likely to have a serious accident as a pedestrian than as a car oocupant. As for the FIA bar being safe, it depends on the use of the car. Bearing in mind that its only purpose is to protect the driver/passenger if the car is rolled (hence the name) it needs to be taller than the occupants of the vehicle (by a suitable margin) - hence the FIA is deemed safer than the ordinary one as the hoop is taller and further forward.

 

However, as I have long contended, for road use if the car is fitted with bench seats (or normal seats without head rests) the diagonal bar behind the head is a major liability in the case of a rear-end shunt (most common accident type) where you end up being hit by the bar. Personnaly I would prefer whiplash to a major skull fracture - so I got Caterham to do a special without the diagonal bar.

 

Sorry Alex, but we each have a soapbox according to our use of the car. For track use with a helmet and suitable padding, my concerns would be negated.

 

Also, vintage race cars didn't have seat belts or roll hoops and relied on the driver being thrown clear of the car in the case of an accident!

 

Cheers,

 

Graham

 

Low tech luddite - xflow and proud!

[KayTee]

Well, Graham, for that type of accident there are the head rest brackets, which are to be used with some sort of high-density foam to absorb the impact, as well as proper roll-bar padding for the diagonal.

I may well look like a complete pratt with both on, but that certainly will not keep me from fitting both.

 

Cheers! - Karsten

[Phil]

Well it has just gone 1am and I have completed the fitting of my new 6point and moving the old 6point to the passenger side, fully adjusted as sugested and very comfy and well worth the effort. Next to remove the std belts from the car, thanks for all the help and tips everyone.

 

 

[Ninja Boy]

My car (which I'm picking up tomorrow teeth.gifteeth.gifteeth.gif) has the 3-pointers, but I'm already sure I'll be upgrading to 4- or 6-pointers as soon as funds allow. I might leave the 3-pointers in as well, just in case I take one or other of my parents for a pootle, and they have difficulty with the straps; or for the sake of staying legal when manoeuvring between the street/garage.

 

As an aside, I seem to recall a report showing an increase in the number of accidents following the introduction of the law requiring seatbelts to be worn. Damn lies and statistics, perhaps, and of course the severity of accidents (the number of serious injuries) was drastically reduced, but it did suggest that the more "safe" the driver feels, the more likely he is to have a bump. Good safety for drivers leading to poor safety for pedestrians, perhaps? Discuss...wink.gif

 

On a similar theme, and with a bit more of a rant wink.gif, is anyone else getting sick of cars becoming bigger and heavier (see latest VW Golf GTI cf. Mk1 version, as an example). "More car around you = better [passive] safety" is a view long held by some (Volvo drivers, perhaps), but surely this is leading to a kind of weight-gaining "arms-race" between vehicles, trying to make sure that if there's a bump, you'll come off better. Typical of the "me, me, me" attitude in the world today (outside this forum/club, of coursewink.gif), and not, I would venture, a position taken by the great Mr. Chapman. I think we should all drive much smaller, lighter, lower cars (about 550kg is about right wink.gifteeth.gifwink.gif). That way:

Collisions (car-car, or car-pedestrian) produce less energy (damage);

Visibility is improved (no Range-Rover/Vitara/New-bloody-Civic blocking the view);

Better fuel economy;

More funteeth.gif (especially in a Seventhumbsup.gif).

 

OK, I can't rant properly today - it's Friday, and tomorrow I'm getting my Seventeeth.gifteeth.gifteeth.gif

 

Just thought I'd stick my oar in[;p].

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

teeth.gif J777 DMH - Have plate, found car to match... teeth.gif

teeth.gif ...S132 CUY arrives tomorrow id=red> teeth.gif

[Peter Carmichael]

I agree that the reduction in visibility from the increase in the number of out-size vehicles is a factor in reduced safety on the roads. How comfortable do you feel - even in a normal tintop - following a Galaxy or a Grand Cherokee. For me it is the same as following a van with the windows blocked out - those little sneak previews through the car in front give you more snippets of information about the road ahead - without them I feel more vulnerable so I just *have* to overtake "for the sake of safety". They can see over me, after all.

 

Heavier vehicles are plainly less safe to all around them than light vehicles. Mixing light and heavy vehicles causes problems. The place for freight is on the railways. Point to point travel (roads) should be reserved for lightweight sportscars.

 

Peterid=teal>

253 BHP K-seriesteeth.gif, no gearboxbum.gifid=red>

[Phil]

I was thinking of having a sex change to reduce my insurance, definately joking, why do women get cheaper insurance, just not fair, they may be more considerate and drive at sensible speeds but they have no idea of size and suffer from pavement suck and have more, much more accidents than us but because they are low speed small dents they never claim. Unfortunately a lot of us men drive to fast so when we do have an accident, it is normaly a claimer. Cars are getting larger and harder to drive, ever driven a Citreon Piccaso for instance, you rely on luck to park them rather than being able to see, I would presume the ford Galaxy etc are the same.

 

 

[Morls]

"Risk Compensation"

 

Is the thing...

 

The theory which proves that people subconciously have a level of risk that they are comfortable with, and will compensate for their environment to achieve it.

 

i.e. Man with 9" spike poking out of steering wheel drives carefuly / man with 6 point harness and nomex jockstrap drives less carefully.

 

Hence: Drivers of big 4x4 or Volvos feel safe and maybe don't concentrate as much as... drivers of 7s / vintage cars / motorcycles who feel vulnerable and have to "look out" for all other users as well as themselves.

 

Try it...

 

I notice it most when I've been moving a motorcycle between garages or similar...

 

Once used to full leathers , gloves, boots and earplugs; jeans and trainers make you feel very unsafe and consequently you ride slower.

 

Mark( Driving naked for my own safety smile.gif )

 

Edited by - Mark Jackson on 15 Jun 2002 11:37:55

[Paul Ranson]

Point to point travel (roads) should be reserved for lightweight sportscars.

And race cars in transit...

 

Paul

 

[Hibster.]

Getting a little closer to the original post.

 

Do 6 pointers work ok with ordinary S-type seats i.e. seats without a hole in the base? I would have thought that compression in the base foam during an impact would render the crutch straps pointless.

 

Every car I looked at at Le Mans that had 6 pointers also had either Tillet or Caterham race seats, both of course have that hole between the driver/passengers legs. [OK, no sniggering at the back smile.gif]

 

Paul

 

"I had a car like that before the war" confused.gif

[scooby dooby doo]

yes they work fine. you feed them up in the corner of the seat very near to the lap belt mounting point. the seat base doesn't come into it.

 

 

Dave Hooper - dmch2@lineone.net