EU3 to EU2 retro fit re. throttlebodies & M3DK

[timbo]

The Queens' day off has certainly give me time to play.

 

Right guys - lets get the debate rolling. What is the best (easiest/cheapest) format to fit throttle bodies on EU3 spec 1.6K? I have the throttle bodies sitting & an EU2 loom complete (+ 1999 superlite R mems - of no use).

 

(1). Build loom adapter for compatability between EU2 M3DK plug & EU3 loom/mems plug?.

 

(2). Retrofit Eu2 loom? (ends compatable with M3DK plugs)

 

Has anybody done this retro conversion who can offer tech assistance?

 

 

[Fred]

i think masha hasquestion.gif may have name wrong. i do know if you do a search

you will find it

 

fredid=blue> eek.gif

[V7 SLR]

You'll be wanting to talk to Miraz. He's having some new engine looms made up which will allow the EU3 engine to work with the Emerald and other niceties.... It'll be the right size too, saving weight and complexity.

[Fred]

SORRY= i though the name was wrong blush.gif

 

fredid=blue> eek.gif

[robmar]

Miraz - was indeed asking for interest to get some custom looms made (he has done this already on his own car) however there was not enough interest at the time, which was a pity as I wanted one sad.gif

 

maybe if interest is re-kindled by this thread it may actually happen smile.gif

 

I am not sure whether an older loom can be retroffited, I amsure someone will pop along and either confirm or deny it

 

rob

 

 

 

[mav]

You could also have a word with Roger King. We have had basic discussions re the EU3 / Alternative ECU situation.

 

[Bob Corb]

If you want to fit an aftermarket ECU to an EU3 engined car then I'd recommendend just changing the plug on the EU3 wiring loom i.e. just fit an Emerald M3D (no K). Miraz has done away with the cam posn sensor and gone back to batched injection. Although it works its not the nicest way of doing things. OEMs dont go to the trouble of arranging sequential injection for nothing! Keeping the sequential injection with improve torque and driveability at low the moderate engine speeds and improve emmisions. Changing the plug isn't that hard after all.

 

Mapping ECUs isnt simply a couple of hours work, if you want real driveability (good smooth transitions etc) then it can take months to get right. Having sequential injection and all the niceties switched on in the ECU can really make the difference. Its like jumping out of a mark 1 golf GTI into an Audi TT.

 

Bob

[oilyhands]

I'm pretty sure Miraz hasnt gone back to batched injection.. I believe pre - EU3 K16 engines have grouped injection which is halfway towards sequential injection. By no stretch of the imagination is this the same as K-jetronic mechanical injection, there is at least a 15 year gulf between the two technologies. The difference in transients and part throttle between fully sequential and grouped is hardly measurable let alone discernable in normal driving, especially if the engine has been after market mapped.

 

Oily

 

 

Edited by - oilyhands on 3 Jun 2002 23:50:02

[timbo]

An adpater plug from the EU3 loom to the M3D!!! using an old EU2 loom plug does seem to be the easiest solution. The problem lies in creating a male connector to wire onto the EU2 loom that fits the EU3 female connector.

 

My idea would be to apply a grease layer to the inside of the EU3 connector - wire up all the connections. Then inject a hot soft plastic solution into the plug. Allow to harden. Sounds like blue Peter!!

 

I would need to touch base with Karl inorder to get the correct pin numbers.

 

I agree with Bob. If the M3D can facilitate the sequential injection I don't see the point of doing away with it. Plus the TBs are made to simply tsf the injector rail ,injectors & fuel pressure reg.

 

I will need to change the plug to the air regulation valve as the TBs run the old ARV (EU2) connection - it is 5 pin square whereas the EU3 is a four in line pin.

 

 

[V7 SLR]

Mapping ECUs isnt simply a couple of hours work, if you want real driveability (good smooth transitions etc) then it can take months to get right.

 

Well, V7 has been mapped over a 4 hour period and it knocks the previous OEM solution into a cocked hat for driveability at all revs (it'll now pull cleanly and very strongly from 1800rpm in 6th all the way to nearly 140mph) and overall torque/power.

 

Timbo, the M3D manual has the pin-outs. If you've not got this, I can probably scan and email. Let me know.

[timbo]

Nigel, pin numbers would be a super help (howard_abraham@dealers.peugeot.co.uk).

I'll be able to tie them up with Rover workshop wiring diagrams.

 

I was able to dismantle the EU3 female connector when rewiring the Rover 25 loom. I am sure that the Eu2 female connector dismantles in a similar manner.

 

Thanks.

Tim.

 

[oilyhands]

The M3D has two injector drivers, so you can run grouped (as per pre EU3 K16 engines) but not sequential.

 

The pinouts for the Mems/M3D connector are in the back of the M3D manual which is downloadable from Emeraldds website.

 

http://members.aol.com/emeraldm3d, follow the link to manuals.

 

Oily

[oilyhands]

The M3D has two injector drivers, so you can run grouped (as per pre EU3 K16 engines) but not sequential.

 

The pinouts for the Mems/M3D connector are in the back of the M3D manual which is downloadable from Emeraldds website.

 

http://members.aol.com/emeraldm3d, follow the link to manuals.

 

Oily

[mav]

What would you reccomend then Oily? I'm looking at upgrading my EU3 1.6SS over the 'closed' season, and want to add TB's and ECU. - I'm on a realatively tight budget, so ideas of £££ would also be appreciated

 

regards,

 

Martin

 

Edited by - mav on 4 Jun 2002 15:37:55

[timbo]

Oily, Will the batched injection run with the twin coil set up on the EU3?

[Johnty Lyons]

Timbo I have the current Emerald manual and I'm reasonably close give me a bell you have my number and I can call down one night and we can give things a whirl Any sign of the gearbox yet??

 

jj

[Johnty Lyons]

Timbo I have the current Emerald manual and I'm reasonably close give me a bell you have my number and I can call down one night and we can give things a whirl Any sign of the gearbox yet??

 

jj

[timbo]

No g/box yet - he was closed today - my patience is wearing ******* thin.

 

I have the TB's on the engine - looking absolutely gorgeous all cleaned up. Am missing a couple of bolts to the head to finish the set up & a bead of silicone as a gasket between the two mating faces.

 

I'll give Karl a bell tomorrow re. rewiring the EU3 plug to an EU2 type to suit the M3D. I'll need to bounce a couple of questions off him re. compatability of the M3D with EU3 injection/ignition system & other misc ECU sensors.

 

I have been able to tsf the entire injection rail/injects/press reg to the TBs. I have used the throttle pot sensor & IARV off the std plastic inj plenum - it should be compatible. The only problem I have is with locating the map sensor - there seems to be no locating position on the TBs - I presume as I am running a suasage type filter if I can mount it close to the airflow on one of the trumpets it should suffice?????

 

If all goes to plan I'll need your noggan re. suitable map for std 1.6K with comp exhaust and TBs - cams to follow later (winter project).

[Johnty Lyons]

FORGET ABOUT THE map SENSOR THE m3d DON'T USE IT.

 

jj

[Johnty Lyons]

REREADING THAT ARE YOU SURE YOUR NOT TALKING ABOUT THE TEMP SENSOR i HAVE MINE ON A BRACKET BETWEEN THE TBs IT SEEMS TO WORK FINE AND GOT THE THUMBS UP FROM DW LAST TIME I WAS AT BRIXTON.

 

jj

[oilyhands]

The M3D will run single or twin coil (wasted spark/plug top coils) so the EU3 in essence doesnt present a problem, I would go with Mirazs loom, its the path of least resistance and he has done all the hard work. The existing fule rail an injectors/TPS etc. should al transfer over to the TBs (I've done this dozens of times). Mirazs engine runs very happily with no sign of any problems on transients.

 

Mav,

 

ECU - £600

TBs - £600

loom - £100 ish?

 

You might want to add Dave Walkers 633 profile cams (£300 ish) , with this set up there are maps already available which will be 90-95% correct.

 

Oily

[Miraz]

My engine is now running grouped injection with an M3d.

 

I will put up a web page (hopefully this week) with some more detailed instructions on how to make up a loom for this arrangement. The detailed instructions should include all the wiring codes/colours etc...

 

The simplest way to get it working is as follows:-

1. obtain an old EU2 Rover loom - £130 from Caterham or Rover or £20 from a specialist Rover breakers.

2. Remove the insulation from the loom - it's only insulating tape over a plastic sheath.

3. Remove the old coil and injector drivers from the EU2 loom

4. Transplant the ignition/injector subloom connector from the EU3 loom (big square connector under the throttle) - if you disconnect the wires coming from this at the ecu end of the loom then you will just need to fit the MEMs style pins - very easy. You will also need to pair up the injectors for 1&4 and for 2&3, this can be done in the crimp connectors in the MEMs plug for simplicity.

5. Strip out all the unused connectors - I removed nearly a kilo of redundant wiring that isn't used in a Caterham installation.

6. Go buy lots of insulation tape.

7. Replace the plastic sheath and wrap with the insulation tape - you might find it simplest to do this with the loom on the engine, as this will allow you to make up the loom to fit.

 

Additional complications:-

1. Air temperature sensor - the early EU3 engines have an air temperature sensor in the number 4 inlet runner, the later ones don't - you may need to add one, if you want to correct for air temperature. In practice the air temperatures from this sensor position are widely inaccurate - Dave Walker turned off all the correction on my setup as the sensor was recording over 60deg most of the time. If you are using throttle bodies then you can position the temp sensor somewhere more sensible.

2. Lambda Sensor - The EU3 engines use a different lambda sensor, either revert to the EU2 lambda sensor or move the connector across from the EU3 loom. The wiring for the lambda sensor is stainless steel, and was very difficult to crimp - I've gone back to the EU2 sensor.

3. IACV - I've done away with it for the moment, as I don't think it's necessary - there seem to be some complications getting the M3d to drive some ROver IACV valves - best discussed with Karl - There is an idle adjustment screw on the standard throttle that seems to work just fine.

 

It is much, much simpler to start with an EU2 loom, than to adapt an EU3 loom - If you are reasonably methodical then you should be able to get a working loom with about 8 new connections.

 

 

[timbo]

In the middle of rewiring - someone keep me on the right lines.

 

(1). Injector loom connection on EU2 engine.

 

This is a 2 pin plug (Y/R + Y/N) - which feeds to pin 13 & 14 on ECU plug.

Replace these two wires with identical coloured wires on the EU3 inj loom connector (wires from EU3 ECU to large female inj connector). Run 1 of live feed (NK) into MFU pin 6 - other live feed (N/K) into power feed in EU2 loom. Run coil feed (W/B) into (W/B) on EU2 loom?

 

Smaller diam wires into EU3 inj connector (K/B, Y/W, R/G, P/Y = EU3 map sensor) are not used???? I am using the EU2 map sensor (2 pin green plug) fitting to a map sensor I have taken from old K series that plugs into TB's inlet mainfold no.1.

 

THIS LEAVES ME WITH W/O, Y/G & Y/U - WHERE DO THESE GO?? I am presuming these function as sequential inj. - so the question is how to batch them.

 

 

(2) MFU. are the MFU's different between EU2 & EU3 - my wiring on the EU3 MFU's is quite different?

 

 

(3). Lambda sensor.

 

I have removed the old lambda sensor connection from the Eu2 loom and replaced this with the EU3 lambda connector in order to retain my existing pre cat lambda plug compatability.

 

(4). Altenator connector.

 

On EU3 this is a 2 pin plug (W/R & N/Y). I have wired in an EU3 plug in place of the old single loop connector - N/Y to chassis loom connector pin 11. This leaves W/R wire from alt. plug (the Eu2 loom runs W/R from MFU plug 2 to chassis loom plug pin 12.

What do I do with this extra W/R wire? I presume not used.

 

(5) Cam sensor EU3

 

Not used on EU2. Here I am really stuck. Any ideas how to integrate the cam signal sensor into EU2 loom?

 

Thanks guys, Tim.

 

[Miraz]

1) Ignition

WO is coil 1 (cyl 1&4) needs to go to ECU 25

WB is coil 2 (cyl 2&3) needs to go to ECU 5

 

Injection

YU = Injector 1 needs to be connected to Injector 4 and to ECU 24

YG = Injector 2 needs to be connected to Injector 3 and to ECU 23

YR = Injector 3

YN = Injector 4

 

MAP sensor wires are not used.

 

The green 2 wire sensor should be an air temperature sensor and should be in the number 4 inlet runner if using the orginal plenum. (cylinders are numbered from the front of the car)

 

2) Yes - stick with the EU2 wiring, it will work without a problem.

 

3) Fine

 

4) the EU3 uses the WR to allow the ecu to sense the alternator status - it's not needed.

 

5) You don't need it, just leave it out.

 

Sounds as though you are on the right track.

 

Miraz

 

Edited by - Miraz on 9 Jun 2002 15:46:28

[timbo]

Thanks Miraz,

 

(1). My coil 2 (W/O) runs to ECU pin 1 not 5 as per Emerald manual.

 

Got the coils sorted - ta.

 

I confused map sensor with airtemp (green plug on EU2) - sorted into no. 4 ie. closest to scuttle ---- can't tell my arse from my elbow!

 

(2) Can you confirm the MFU situation regarding compatability of EU3 MFU and the older EU2 MFU.

 

(3). Karl recommends not using the std EU3 injectors - the older ones have a larger flow rate - he ran into difficulty on another similar setup with std injectors.

 

(4). I am missing a wire from pin 12 (tacho output signal) Does this connect into coil 1 feed and then on into chassis loom plug?

 

(5) I have a plug I can't indentify. - (black 2 pin plug GY, GN) wires running from chassis loom plug - it compares with the g/box speed sensor on the std Rover loom? - if so I'll scrap it.

 

That should be it. Just waiting for Karl to send M3DK - bit of a back order he tells me. Plus my g/box back. Next to find a map for std 1.6K running VHPD 42 TBs/competition 4-1 manifold. Cams to come in the winter.