Tom Pickering Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 On Friday I was blatting down a long straight piece of road when suddenly oil was thrown out of the bonnetlouvers and all over the windscreen, on my side mainly. Struggling to see, I eased off and pulled over about half mile or so further on,where it was safe. As I pulled over the engine (1700 Xflow) cut out. The water temp was about 90deg. Bonnet off and looking around, our cause was hampered by the fact that oil was everywhere. Now I know this might sound stupid, but I attempted to start the engine in an effort to see where the oil might be flowing out. It felt tight, as thought it was an effort for the battery to turn it over. About the fourth try it started and as it did, oil was thrown out from below the Webers and up through the gap between them. And no oil pressure. I turned it off straight away. Nose cone off now, as we inspected oil lines and other bits below the carbs. It didn't take too long to discover, that the oil filter had worked loose. Cursing the garage that had just serviced it, I re-tightened it and filled the engine back up with Oil. It wasn't as tight this time starting and the oil pressure came back up to normal. Saturday I cleaned everything up. Today I went for a blat and guess what? Oil all over the windscreen again - same problem. I did tighten it up really tight and the rubber seal wasn't trapped, though the top one had popped out a loop about the size of a one pence piece on each occasion. Any ideas what might be causing the filter to work loose. Or is it simply overtightening? Bit long-winded, but I wanted you to get the fuller picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 You might have a stuck oil pressure relief valve that is causing over-pressure to blow the seal out. Peterid=blue> eek.gifSecond loser, Class 5, Curborough May 2002id=red> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Tom I'm not sure why your oil filter is coming lose but if the car has just been serviced you should contact the garage immediately Without putting too finer point on it your engine will almost certainly need some serious work. Having lost it's oil pressure and then been driven for 1/2 mile will almost certainly have damaged at least the big end bearings, that's why your engine stopped as the bearings were partially seized, restarting it will only have added to the problem You shouldn't drive it anywhere not even to the servicing dealer, get them to collect it on a trailer/ transporter You should have a reasonable claim on the garage that did the service to pay for the work that needs to be done and I suggest you don't allow yourself to be fobbed off with 'it'll be ok with a new filter' it may seem ok initally but problems will almost certainly develop that will be very costly in the future If you are in any doubt get a third party specialist or Caterham to look at the engine and give you a written report Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Pickering Posted June 3, 2002 Author Share Posted June 3, 2002 Mark - Thanks for the advice, sounds potentially expensive already, but what if Peter has a point about a sticking oil pressure relief valve. I doubt if a garage will accept any responsibility if it is that (thats if they consider this point). Peter - Where is the Oil pressure relief valve anyway and how do I check out if it is stuck? Also sound like I won't be going to Oulton tomorrow - more expense - probably loose my track day fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Tom It's worth talking ot the servicing dealer, see how they react, if they are unhelpful or non commital about resolving things or they try to blame other factors you should get a second opinion as to what caused the problem perhaps talk ot Roger King Peter may well be right and you may just have been unlucky that another problem came along however if the pressure relief valve was stuck I would have thought that your oil pressure would have been reading much higher than normal although the symptoms do suggest a relief valve problem, I wouldn't be inclined to suggest anything to the servicing dealer, see what they say Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Pickering Posted June 3, 2002 Author Share Posted June 3, 2002 Mark - The oil pressure was reading (I believe) normal. Between 3 & 4 when cold on tickover and coming down to 1.5 - 2 at tickover when hot. At about 5 -6 thousand revs it went upto and just above 4. I hav'nt noticed anything that indicates higher than normal pressure. So I'm not too sure about the sticking pressure relief valve (wherever that is), unless it is intermittant sticking (if this is possible). I have just taken the oil filter off and cleaned everything up. Inspecting both rubber sealing rings and their seats (one on the filter and the one above), they all appear ok. There are no nicks, cracks or bits that should'nt be there. I also fear that if there was any damage to the big ends, as you suggest, that after yesterdays blat, I may have made them worse now. Although the car was running perfectly with no audible signs coming from the engine. Or am I being naive here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Pickering Posted June 3, 2002 Author Share Posted June 3, 2002 I was wondering also if too much oil in the engine might cause some kind of overpressure and cause the top seal on the filter housing to blow out. Although by the time the seal popped out any overfilling would (I should have thought) been thrown out of the breather pipe and into the plastic reservoir. It was about half full on the second occasion and less than a quarter on the first. On both occasions that it happened I had covered approx 40 miles and was at about 5 - 6 thousand revs when the oil was thrown out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 You might have the incorrect filter type, seeing as this has just been changed. You need a filter that has a bypass so that the overall pressure drop across the filter never gets much more than 1.5bar - this is where you need a crossflow expert to give you chapter and verse on filter types, but this could well be an incorrect fitting by the garage. Peterid=teal> 253 BHP K-seriesteeth.gif, no gearboxbum.gifid=red> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Sewell Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 I have used the Champion 103 filter on many occasions without any problem. If it was a faulty filter, then as your contract was with the garage, they must repair any damage. They in turn will claim from their suppliers. Low tech luddite - xflow and proud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F355GTS Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Tom You really need somebody to inspect the bearings before you drive it anymore, if as Peter has suggested the wrong filter has been fitted then you need to limit any damage as the garage might have reasonable cause to ask you to contribute to the repair bills. It is possible that you managed to stop before any long term damage but from your previous description your engine had seized albeit momentarily. The main bearings are a very soft metal and it only takes seconds without oil for the faces to be damaged, this may not show up now but could fail very quickly depending on the level of scoring Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Pickering Posted June 3, 2002 Author Share Posted June 3, 2002 Thanks to all for your comments - I'll have to wait till Wednesday for the garage to open and have the bearing inspected. I take it that if I'm very lucky, it might only be necessary to replace the bearings. Tom - depressed Xflow - going nowhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jf_renard Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 Hello Tom. Cosworth BDR 1600: 2 weeks ago, had the same problem : oil filter seal popped out and oil everywhere. But my pressure gauge was above max (so more than 6 bars). On Peter and Brent advices, I dismanteled the oil pump (where the filter is hanging), and I found the pressure relief valve stuck in "closed" position. Carefully cleaned it, and everything is OK. One of my friends got the pictures on his website : http://emmanuel.joucla.free.fr/2002bdr.htm But if your gauge indicates a normal pressure, maybe the cause is elsewhere. You said: "Inspecting both rubber sealing rings and their seats (one on the filter and the one above), ....". I'm not sure to understand, but it sounds strange to me to have 2 sealing rings on an oil filter. I've heard of a sticky ring from an old filter staying on the engine, and a second ring coming with the new filter. In that case (2 rings where there should be only one), it's nearly sure the top one will pop out. If it's the case for your car, it should be easy for you to blame on the garage that did the service. Hope I can help. Jeff Cosworth 1600 BDR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Pickering Posted June 3, 2002 Author Share Posted June 3, 2002 Jeff Thanks for your comments, I read them with interest. The top seal that I refer to is the one that is sited between the oil filter housing (attached to the oil pump on the side of the block) and what I might describe as a "Banjo" type unit, that has two pipe connections, connected to the oil cooler. This was the one that popped. Sandwiching this unit is the filter which comes with it's own seal and this was fine. I hope this enlightens you, as to which seal I refer. I am interested to know if you experienced any "Momentary seziure", as suggested by Mark (F355 GTS). Or any other damage from the sudden loss of oil and pressure. I am considering looking at the oil pump, as you did, before I take it to the garage on Wednesday Cheers Tom Edited by - Tom Pickering on 4 Jun 2002 17:03:40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Pickering Posted June 3, 2002 Author Share Posted June 3, 2002 Peter I was interested in you comment on Filters that have a bypass in them. Do you know of any types that have this. Your comment may have some bearing on the problem. Graham Do you know if the Champion 103 filter has this bypass and are they available from places like Halfords. Tom - still broke and down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter T Posted June 3, 2002 Share Posted June 3, 2002 I was recommended the Cahmpion C104 by a rep from champion, he said that the filter should have no problems sustaining high oil pressure as it is also fitted to many ford diesels. Been using them and so far no problems since. C7 PWT X-Flow all Steel Life begins at 40(00rpm) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jf_renard Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 Hello Tom. See that link. It's my dismantled oil pump. The filter should be on the right, with its own seal. If I understand, the seal which popped on your car is the one you can see between marks 8 and 5.On my car, it was the filter's one. Anyway, that means the oil pressure is too high. I see 2 possible investigations: A jam somewhere after the pump (but probably not inside the filter: I think all filters have a by-pass). A stuck oil pressure relief valve. It was the origin of my problem. On the picture, it's the 8 mark. A piston which is about 1cm (sorry, I'm a froggy) diameter and a spring. It was hard for me to pull it out of its hole, and once cleaned it moved very smoothly in it. If you can check it moves freely (except the spring push), you can progress in your diagnosis. Put it together and everything worked well. You must know that to be able to give enough pressure at low revs, an oil pump must give too much pressure at high revs. That's why there is a valve. PS: I had no damage from the sudden loss of oil and pressure, because it happened when I was just driving the car out of my garage, for a sunday run that never happened. Hope you will be as lucky. Jeff Cosworth 1600 BDR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Pickering Posted June 4, 2002 Author Share Posted June 4, 2002 Jeff Many thanks for your illustration, it will help a lot and you are right it is the seal you indicate. No.5 is the fitting I was trying to describe as a "Banjo" type unit. (don't know what its correct name is). Just off now to attack the oil pump and check the relief valve. Cheers Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jf_renard Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 I've heard of what you call a "banjo" as being a "snail". But you know what we do with snails in France confused.gif. The website where the picture is is from a french Caterham 1600GT owner who tries to collect as much technical infos as he can. When I posted a topic on a french Caterham forum about my oil pressure, he asked me to write a report and take photos, what I did. I'm happy to see it can be helpful! The website :CATERHAM Super 7 1600 GT My oil pressure investigation : déblocage de la soupape de régulation de la pression d'huile A report about my car : CATERHAM Super 7 Cosworth BDR 1600 Tell us about your valve! Jeff Cosworth 1600 BDR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Pickering Posted June 4, 2002 Author Share Posted June 4, 2002 Jeff Just finished putting the oil pump back on. The valve did not appear to be stuck. It moves freely and came out quite easily. (if it was stuck a little then it is free now). If it wasn't the valve then what else could have caused the seal to pop out. The filter on my car is a "Coopers A1911Z", which was fitted by the garage. I don't know if this has a by-pass The only issue now is, what are the main bearings like. I'm Not going to check them myself, I will leave that to the garage. Nothing wrong with snails by the way, I could eat a pan full. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 The fitting you are referring to is not a banjo, but a "sandwich plate". Peterid=teal> 253 BHP K-seriesteeth.gif, no gearboxbum.gifid=red> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted June 4, 2002 Share Posted June 4, 2002 Something nagged me to have a look at the archives. Have a look here Peterid=teal> 253 BHP K-seriesteeth.gif, no gearboxbum.gifid=red> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Pickering Posted June 4, 2002 Author Share Posted June 4, 2002 Peter The only thing I can think of that Roger King noted at the bottom of the thread you refered me to, was the possibility of a poor quality filter. I dont know what the Coopers A1911Z filter is like in quality. Mine is a wet sump and in consideration of fitting another filter, I wondered if the EFL500 would be suitable or if this is only applicable to dry sumped configurations. The hoses to the filter from the oil pump are easily 1/2" internal diameter, plus the car was running perfectly prior to being serviced. I mainly had it serviced and checked over because a few bits started to work loose. It does seem to point to something going amiss since the service and the possibility of the filter is looking more likely. Noted: "sandwich plate" Thanks for your help Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now