Dry stump tank location/height

[rgrigsby]

Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the importance of the location of the dry sump tank, I'm planning to move to a dry sump tank located above the gearbox in the scuttle due to space constraints elsewhere in the engine bay.

 

Someone mentioned today that they thought it was generally considered good practice to keep the tank at a similar level to the sump?

 

Just wondering before I go and cut a hole in the scuttle!

 

Cheers

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[Beelzebub]

Reflecting on bikes I've had with a D/S system the tanks have always been well above the level of the sump. This may be better as the oil's going to have hydrostatic head of pressure on its way to the pump.I can't see a problem relocating the tank providing it's not below the pump as the pump's gravity fed.

 

D.

 

 

[The Pikey]

I was told recently that is was a good idea to have the tank in front of the engine so during acceleration the oil is not pulled away from the sump but pushed in it. I'm not too sure how credible this advice is as I see a lot of dry sump tanks are in the bell housing.

 

Jason

 

 

Currently, I am qualified to plead ignorance.

 

 

Edited by - Jason Fletcher on 30 Apr 2008 22:10:17

[Paul Deslandes]

Mine's mounted in front of the engine but you might have a strut in the same space depending on the age of the chassis. The engine's a 2.0 litre Vx.

 

see here

 

Paul

 

 

[ECR]

Rob

If this is to be located where Alex Wong had his, with the outlet passing under the transverse chassis rail that supports the "heater shelf" it would be worth investigating some means of isolating the outlet from the tank (a valve or dry break system if they will take the flow) because disconnecting the pipework when removing the engine was a tad messy.

[Irrelevant]

I was told recently that is was a good idea to have the tank in front of the engine so during acceleration the oil is not pulled away from the sump but pushed in it

Good advice . . . I'm moving mine this weekend.

 

 

[Beelzebub]

I was told recently that is was a good idea to have the tank in front of the engine so during acceleration the oil is not pulled away from the sump but pushed in it

 

 

Well, what happens when you lift at high RPM's then brake heavily after moving the tank to the front ? Assuming that the decelerative forces are higher than those whilst under acceleration.

 

In terms of oil pressure seen at the pump outlet I'd never considered the position of the tank within a Caterham chassis to be a factor.

 

Dave.

 

 

[I.Mupferit]

I've got one of the Mick Attree design, Brise manufactured kidney shaped oil tanks mounted in front of my engine. It fits a treat and will also fit in the S3 chassis quite comfortably. Recommended.

 

If I didn't know you better Adam, I'd say you were taking the p1ss.

 

 

 

Brent

(aka Arfur Nayo)

 

2.3 DURATEC SV You know when you've been AMMO'd 😬

R470.69 😬

[Johnty Lyons]

Rob the brise Kidney tank holds 7ltrs and fits in front of the engine.

 

Makes plumbing a doddle as well

 

---

jj

N.I. L7C AR 🙆🏻

Membership No.3927.

240BHP 1900cc K Series 40th Anniversary

 

[I.Mupferit]

Actually it holds more than that but I won't argue.

 

Brent

(aka Arfur Nayo)

 

2.3 DURATEC SV You know when you've been AMMO'd 😬

R470.69 😬

[Roger King]

Hi Rob,

 

General convention on a car installation is to keep all components (pump, tank, filter, cooler, etc) at roughly the same height as each other. A high tank can suffer from draining down into the engine if left for long periods, but the most important thing is to avoid routing the plumbing in any way that encourages air locks in the system. Really this means keeping each hose on a fairly constant slope and avoiding up and down loops over obstructions.

[Jason Plato]

I just dont fancy 7Kg of oil plus a 2 (?)kg tank sat over the front wheels .

 

Or should I have listened to the bloke from Pace who told me that the extra weight over the front wheels will help cornering as there will be more grip ......... probably the same cock that told you it feeds oil into the engine under acceleration

 

Thinking aloud and on a serious note ............ wht do you have a dry sump system on the duratec anyway ?. It works perfectly well with the Raceline wetsump and saves a heap of weight *thumbup*

 

Taffia rear gunner

 

[I.Mupferit]

No it doesn't!!!

 

Or perhaps more accurately - it didn't on my previous 2 engines which is why I am now on a 3rd engine.

 

Brent

(aka Arfur Nayo)

 

2.3 DURATEC SV You know when you've been AMMO'd 😬

R470.69 😬

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 1 May 2008 08:24:10

[Dave B]

Rob

I have a xflow dry sump and used a Burtons tank, holds about 9 ltrs. Had to cut away the passenger footwell level with vertical scuttle and blank off with plate from CC. Then pop riveted a steel sheet over the triangular chassis tubes which were exposed, to bolt the tank to. Feed from tank to pump goes around chassis tubes at front of engine and then to pump. Have never had any problems with this. SWMBO is quite short so reduced leg room was no issue.

Cheers

Dave B

[The Pikey]

Dave J

 

I won't mention names but the "cock" who told me it was best to fit the sump tank at the front is actually well respected on Blatchat and being a complete novice in the world of Seven's I do listen to what ever advice people offer me and then take time out to decide if its good or bad advice. As far as the sump advice goes, I'm undecided but I wouldn't call him a cock.

 

Jason

 

 

 

No it doesn't!!!

 

Or perhaps more accurately - it didn't on my previous 2 engines which is why I am now on a 3rd engine.

 

---

 

Ouch!

 

Currently, I am qualified to plead ignorance.

 

[Jason Plato]

Brent were there other contributory factors that led to your oil pressuere variance ? - maybe the history of the blocks ?. I think we have covered this one in previous threads ?

 

Jason - I dont know who said it or what he does for a living, which is nice beacuse then its an impartial opinion isnt it ?. I also do listen to what ever advice people offer me - including the statement you wrote and then take time out to decide if its good or bad advice - and on this occasion I concluded that its nonsense and it may be from the same bloke that told me turn in would be improved 😬 no harm done and it was a good chcukle at the time

 

do you seriously think that what you were told will actually work and be a benifit ?

 

 

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia rear gunner

 

[I.Mupferit]

Dave, there were no other contributory factors and no we haven't covered it on previous threads primarily because I didn't want to go there in public. I have alluded to it on previous threads but it has by no means been covered comprehensively.

 

The blocks were absolutely fine in both instances, as was everything else - with one exception.

 

If you are are happy yours works then that is very good, but I wasn't and mine didn't - so to speak!

 

Brent

(aka Arfur Nayo)

 

2.3 DURATEC SV You know when you've been AMMO'd 😬

R470.69 😬

[Irrelevant]

Jason: I'll quantify my post above, I am moving my tank because I measured a decrease in oil pressure on a long fast right hander and under very hard acceleration. This was on a hot day on soft slicks and the first time I had seen this behaviour. I think it is down to the fact that the dry sump I use (TTS/Pace one) has the oil feed on the front and due to the way my engine is installed, I have a long and nasty pipe routing between the tank and sump. I want to make this pipe as short as possible and have it running smoothly downwards - this is not possible with my tank where it is.

As far as to the "not pulled away from the sump but pushed in it" (from advice you received), bear in mind that the oil from the tank goes straight to the oil feed in the bottom of the engine, it doesn't go back into the sump itself.

So, I am moving my tank because it will hopefully work for me with my installation, not because it's the 'best' place for it. As long as the engine gets a good supply of oil under heavy cornering/braking/acceleration, I suppose the tank can go pretty much anywhere around the engine.

[The Pikey]

do you seriously think that what you were told will actually work and be a benifit ?

---

 

Dave

 

I honestly don't know if it would work like he said but as the sump feed fitting is at the front on the Nova dry sump for the Busa and with the tank fitted at the front, it only needs 6 inches of pipe to connect them so thats where I fitted it yesterday.

 

Jason

 

Currently, I am qualified to plead ignorance.

 

Adam

 

so I hear you are planning to do the tank mod this weekend. So you are not going to Stoneleigh? Was sort of hoping to get you to drop in as I live there and tell me where I have gone wrong

 

J

 

 

Edited by - Jason Fletcher on 1 May 2008 09:24:49

[Rob Walker]

Mounting the dry sump tank high up in the scuttle tray is a poor location IMO.

 

1. the tank will drain down into the sump when stood.

2. very little airflow to help oil cooling

3. weight high up is a bad idea

4. not easy to effect an oil change.

 

In my installations I always try to keep the bottom of the tank level with the sump if possible, this ensures that the oil will only drain down and equalise between the sump pan and the tank. If the tank is high it is possible for the entire contents of the tank to drain into the sump and even fill the bores if you have 7L capacity. Not good on start up. I had a an old Velocette Bike in my youth this had a high oil tank but had spring loaded ball valves to prevent the oil draining back into the sump.

 

I can also endorse DJ that the Raceline wet sump is all you need on the Duratec.

 

Rob

 

[I.Mupferit]

Well we all have our own opinion on that subject Rob. I know what I saw on both my engines and I also know what other people saw on their own similar installations entirely independently of me. Oil pressure falling from a normal 75, down to 30psi at 5500rpm on a straight road (and still falling) is not, I would suggest, what you want to see happening in any engine. And before anybody asks, that was on both the electrical and subsequent mechanical gauges, we were seeing the identical problem.

 

It is a shame because I like their products and have a good deal of respect for the people concerned but sadly it didn't work for me and a few others. C'est la vie.

 

Would I use their products again? Yes, definitely.

 

Would I use this particular product again or recommend it to anyone else? No.

 

Brent

(aka Arfur Nayo)

 

2.3 DURATEC SV You know when you've been AMMO'd 😬

R470.69 😬

 

 

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 1 May 2008 11:00:23

[Rob Walker]

Brent,

 

All I can say is that as far as I am concerned there is no problem with the Raceline wet sump, if you have had oil starvation problems on a straight road then there is a specific problem with your engine and not the sump.

 

Rob

[I.Mupferit]

Whatever Rob, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you. I know what the cause was in my particular case and others I have spoken to and which has been witnessed by people who actually know what they are talking about. Equally, I know many others who run this sump with no problem and good for them. All I have ever said is that it definitely caused problems on my engines and others I am now aware of and I now think I know why this was so having thoroughly examined my wet sump after it was taken off.

 

Go ahead and bury your head in the sand, believing what you want to believe. It's your prerogative.

 

Sorry to hijack your thread Rob G 😶‍🌫️

 

Brent

(aka Arfur Nayo)

 

2.3 DURATEC SV You know when you've been AMMO'd 😬

R470.69 😬

 

Edited by - Brent Chiswick on 1 May 2008 18:50:20

[rgrigsby]

Woah ok this thread has been a bit busy since last night, so there seems to be mixed opinions on the location.

 

The problem I have is that I'm running the Freestyle pushrod front suspension which I suspect will prevent me from fitting a Brise kidney style tank (which FYI is what I used to run but the tank was badly damaged in the accident).

 

The only options that I could see where to chop the passenger footwell and run a tank there which I'd really not do want to do or run one in the scuttle position. I used to run a tank at the end of the footwell on my old xflow and whilst it was fine (which sort of rules out the airflow arguement) you do lose a lot of footwell space and there is considerable heat transfer into the footwell.

 

I'm not even going to start talking about wet sump vs dry sump as I have a dry sump system fitted and I'm sticking with it 😳

 

Guess I need to see if I can fit a kidney style tank in after all but I'm fairly sure it won't fit.

 

Cheers

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[I.Mupferit]

My car has both the kidney shaped oil tank and the Freestyle inboard suspension so I think you may find it will fit. Ok, I know mine is an SV but before ordering my tank I measured the engine bay and, in particular, the area in front of the engine and compared it to an S3 chassis car which also was using the Brise tank.

 

I was surprised to find that, apart from the width, in this area the dimensions were exactly the same longitudinally between both chassis types. The only modification I made to the Brise tank was to cut back the bracket lug that normally bolts on top of the expansion bottle mount since that point is used to locate the damper bridge with Gary's suspension. I then fabricated a separate bracket to fix to the shortened tank lug to hold it in place at the top. At the bottom, of course, I bolted through the tank flange into large diameter 'P' clips fixing to the chassis rails.

 

If you want to blatmail me your email address, I'll take some pics on Saturday and mail them to you. Alternatively if you are going to Stoneleigh, you can have a look at it in the flesh as it were.

 

Mounting the tank in front of the engine is quite a neat solution I think as it does keep the oil lines as short as they can practically be while allowing airflow over the tank to help cool it in hot conditions.

 

Brent

(aka Arfur Nayo)

 

2.3 DURATEC SV You know when you've been AMMO'd 😬

R470.69 😬