jeremybu Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Car failed its MOT earlier this week on emissions. The retest didn't go any better even though original exhaust with Cat was refitted. The CO2 was 9.241 instead of .300 which presumably warrants some *eek* 🙆🏻 🙆🏻 🙆🏻. It's a 1.6 K and has the usual DVA stuff of an Emerald, TBs, Cams, Verniers and a 4-2-1 exhaust (also the original with cat). The car hasn't been on a rolling road so that is probably what I need for this to be resolved, however Emerald can't do it for 3 months. Is there an interim solution or a recommended tuner in the south that I should talk to. 1.6 SV - GJ02JLO - If there's one thing I've learned, it's that it should have been something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S47zz Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Wow that's tough, When you get to Emerald ask DW to do you an 'MOT' map, I have one for my car which uses a Zetec, hopefully someone with a 1600K will have one they can email you, Good Luck Mal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DohNut Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 If the MOT emissions are tested at idle and fast idle there is not need for a rolling road, only some thing to test the emissions (and laptop / cables / knowledge). it does beg the question how far out the rest of the map is though I suspect the rest of the map is the right shape just shifted up to be "safely rich" or timing a "bit retarded" N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAUL MARRIOTT Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Jeremy I've a similar set up to you TBs, Piper 285s, big v/vs, 4-2-1 and Emerald, but a 1.8. DW did a "MOT" map for me with a non cat exhaust, that didn't get past But on the advice of Oily I refitted my Cat exhaust and just reduced the fueling for the idle and fast idle on the 1st load site - no problems. Paul M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubbster Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 I have a similar spec car, a rolling road session won't fix it. You need to alter the fuelling just for the MOT as Paul says, preferably during the test so you need a friendly MOT man. To get mine through took a lot of adjustment (but it only takes seconds to actually do). I have some instructions somewhere if you need them. It's only taken four and a half years - I have started my website at last! Early days yet . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremybu Posted February 21, 2008 Author Share Posted February 21, 2008 Emerald are sending me some instructions so that I can do one of two things. 1) pass the MOT. 2) mess up the ECU mapping completely. We will wait and see. Thanks for the advice so far. 1.6 SV - GJ02JLO - If there's one thing I've learned, it's that it should have been something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Hi Jeremy, That CO2 reading is quite a discrepency. It's worth as a quick do-it-yourself check, just making sure none of the spark plugs are not loose - an airleak such as that can sometimes be the cause of a suspiciously high CO2 (I speak from experience in this area.. ) When you get the instructions from Emerald, would you mind posting me a copy? It sounds like it would be a useful thing to include on the Emerald Maps Library page so that it's centrally accessible for others, come the dreaded annual check.. Best of luck with getting it sorted. Darren E K80RUM Website and Emerald maps library Superlight R #54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Sewell Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 [pedant] surely the MOT test looks at CO and not CO2 [/pedant] Cheers, Graham --- Low tech luddite - xflow and proud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremybu Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 Graham You are correct. 1.6 SV - GJ02JLO - If there's one thing I've learned, it's that it should have been something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremybu Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 OK. Have done some research, and my little brain is filling fast. If I have it right it looks like I need to either: 1a) Take my laptop to the MOT station to ensure my CO!!! reading is acceptable. I understand I can adjust the fueling as required without finalising the adjustment so it would revert afterwards. (Could Paul M have kept his NON cat exhaust on and just leaned off further to comply or would this turn out to be impossible). 1b) Adjust the mixture before going to the MOT station. This doesn't sound ideal as I presume even a short drive with it set lean could be a problem, and I won't know if it is lean enough without a CO reader anyway. That hopefully gets me over the short term issue. I am booked in with Dave Walker in May, but in the meantime is it worth me messing around with the mapping or does my lack of knowledge mean I should leave a working car alone. If the vote is to tinker: 2a) The Emerald looks like it has a learn function. To implement this, I think I need a wideband Lambda? Once wired up, does the ECU just learn pretty much the best settings after a period of time and is it a case of plug and go or do I need to set some parameters first? If its the former, what would then be the point of a RR session? 2b) If you are doing your own road mapping, there must be an ideal AFR that you are looking for for each site which differs as speed/load rises. Am I right in thinking that you need some form of readout to show if you are running rich/lean or does the wideband Lambda report to the ECU and you can then view this data and corect it. This takes me back to the first part of 2a really. Darren is discussing some of this in his current thread, but at a higher level. I am trying to grasp this from the beginning so sorry if it seems basic or completely wrong. Any assistance is much appreciated. 1.6 SV - GJ02JLO - If there's one thing I've learned, it's that it should have been something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Howe Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Jeremy... can I suggest you phone me this evening - 01444 892127 - as I might be ble to help. JH Deliveries by Saffron, the yellow 230bhp Sausage delivery machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilyhands Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Jeremy, You dont need any self-learning, you just need to lean the fuelling off at idle and at 0 load 2500-3000 and turn on closed loop. It takes about 20 minutes to do this at a friendly MOT centre. I have a local place that allows me to set up the fuelling for cars running TBs. I've never had one fail after adjustment. Oily Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremybu Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 Dave Will this work without the cat? 1.6 SV - GJ02JLO - If there's one thing I've learned, it's that it should have been something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 I posed this question a while ago Jeremy - the opinion was that even a well set-up engine will always need a cat to pass an MOT if it's emissions-tested As Dave says, the adaptive mapping (which needs a wideband sensor in the exhaust to function) is an un-necessary expense just to get the car through the MOT - it will only be doing what you're doing by knocking hte fuelling values down. The advantages in using it are that it can adjust fuelling automatically when the car's on the move - not something that's important when they MOT-test at specific rev sites. Darren E K80RUM Website and Emerald maps library Superlight R #54 Edited by - k80rum on 22 Feb 2008 11:50:08 Edited by - k80rum on 22 Feb 2008 11:52:05 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremybu Posted February 22, 2008 Author Share Posted February 22, 2008 Darren OK, I'll leave the cat on for the test. I was looking at the mapping being a later development, not for MOT purposes. With it adjusting automatically, does this negate the need to apply manual adjustments and have a RR session or is it generally a little hit and miss hence the need for human input? 1.6 SV - GJ02JLO - If there's one thing I've learned, it's that it should have been something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Ah... Sorry. Yes there's some value in the wideband sender then. The adaptive mapping (assuming your Emerald is the K3 firmware type), will allow the ECU to trim the fuelling map as you drive. It's shouldn't be considered as a replacement for a rolling road session, as the fuel map is only a part of the whole - your ignition map, idling and cold/hot starting would still benefit from a RR setup (and it would more comprehensively sort out the fuelling map, than driving around with closed-loop mapping is likely to.) Bear in mind too, that you'd need a close-fit map to start adaptive mapping from (unless you get the car rolling roaded to start off with) Where it is useful is in making a close fuelling map that bit better, and I'd guess in compensating for other variable things such as variations in fuel octane. Darren E K80RUM Website and Emerald maps library Superlight R #54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
u01rsb Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Jeremy, I went through a very similar problem when I had to get my Busa engined Caterham through the SVA which includes an emmission test. The key things I learned were: 1. Ensure all of the exhaust is properley sealed (with HT silicone if possible). 2. Silicone and lead are poisonous to a CAT so be careful not to let any get in to the CAT. 3. You will need a decent sized CAT that works. 4. The CAT will only work if it is at the right temperature and the lamda value is correct. 5. Once you get it set up correctly you will see a major reduction in your measured emissions and wonder why you thought it was so difficult in the first place. You can find more info at the following:link Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Day Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 ..............or a recommended tuner in the south that I should talk to. Steve Greenald, Track n Road, 07774-773824. Located just a few miles north of the Dartford tunnel may be able to help. He's mapped many Caterhams & can handle Emerald & other ECU's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
u01rsb Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 You do not need your engine fully mapped to get it to pass the emissions, you just need the lambda value to be correct (~1) at the engine speed that it is being tested at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmar Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 so what chance have i got if I have no Lambda but a cat ☹️ am assuming 2 hopes, none and bob 😔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grubbster Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Without a cat I think your chances are close to zero. I had my std exhaust modified so I can just push it onto the 4 primaries once a year . . . It's only taken four and a half years - I have started my website at last! Early days yet . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
u01rsb Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 Mr Robmar, I had a CAT but no fitted lamda sensor for my SVA. About a week before we set it up with a pipe up the exhaust to measure the lamda value, set the lamda value to about 1 and then checked the emissions. When I went to the SVA centre a week later the lamda value was the same at the same rpm and it easily passed.. Don't worry you will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nov-07 Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 My DVA-upgraded 1.8K Seven nearly failed its second MOT test today The tester had allowed the engine to idle for a long time, so the exhaust and cat cooled down. He was also not very good at maintaining a constant engine speed, so the fuelling was all over the place during the 30secs or so of the test. CO levels were way too high I whipped out the laptop (as one does) and, after a quick call to Dave Walker at Emerald ( *thumbup*) proceeded to tweak the injector map at 2,500rpm. This caused some surprise and amazement among the garage mechanics 😬 CO levels fell to below the pass limit I have, of course, carefully preserved the modified map for future use. Thank goodness for programmable ECUs ❗ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k80rum Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Tony (November7) has very kindly provided his MOT-compliant map for inclusion in the Emerald Maps library. I've posted it up, along with Jeremy's 'Cold Starting and Passing the MOT' document from Emerald, in case either are useful to people in passing the MOT. Darren E K80RUM Website and Emerald maps library Superlight R #54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Carmichael Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Tony (November7) has very kindly provided his MOT-compliant map for inclusion in the Emerald Maps library. I've posted it up, along with Jeremy's 'Cold Starting and Passing the MOT' document from Emerald, in case either are useful to people in passing the MOT. Darren, Not dismissing your good work in cataloguing Emerald maps, but how can you believe that an "MOT" map for Tony's engine will be an MOT map for any number of other modified engines? Reviewing this thread, we have... ... an original poster who has been scared silly by the phrase "MOT map" into believing passing the MOT is difficult when the MOT test is performed at two operating conditions of the engine (idle and fast idle) ... Rob Mar (who should know better) saving weight on his sprint car by not fitting a lambda sensor ... self-mapping brought into the ring as a contender for sorting this out, which I believe would not be far off the result achieved by an infinite number of monkeys ... no mention of closed loop settings Edited by - Peter Carmichael on 25 Feb 2008 01:39:54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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