yet more starting woes.... help - please.

[philwaters]

Ok, so here is a good one for you on a Friday!

 

I went along to the Surrey meet last night (hi to everyone there - good turn out) and when I came to leave my car was pretty reluctant to turn over, with it stopping on the compression stage. On the forth attempt, I think it was, it started up (thankyou god!) and it was fine for the trip home.

When I got home I switched off in the garage and thought I'd try it again, hot engine and freshly run and charged, etc. I got the same thing with it stopping on the compression. I gave up and plugged it into the conditioner - which showed it as not fully charged!

 

Now, the background, I have just fitted a new battery and then a new starter and solenoid (well re-con anyway) and it started fine when I first went out to it. The reason for the new ones were the same syptoms as above and could be fixed with a jump from a running car, so this seems to hint that it is not getting enough power from the battery to spin fast enough to catch or get past the compression stroke. So what could causing this? Is it the leads or is it more likely that there is a drain somewhere that is pulling power?

One thing I noticed was that when I turned off the ignition after trying it the battery light dimmed down rather than just cutting out, as if the key wasn't killing the power to it fully?

 

Boy am I getting depressed with this car!

 

Phil Waters

Zetec is in and running - well sort of sad.gif

 

 

Edited by - philwaters on 17 May 2002 08:58:56

[Lennie]

Phil if the battery light dims it is usually an alternator problem. It may pay you to buy a multimeter to measure the voltage, amps and resistance on the car. Meters are about £20 a lot less than a guess. Charge rates should be about 14.2 volts and the starter should draw no more than 180 amps when starting. To check is very easy and Im sure there is enough help on this site to lead you through it.

[Dave H]

A quick check to ensure it is the battery and not the starter - turn the lights on, and then try and start the car. If the lights dim right down, then the starter is drawing all the power, but, if the lights remain bright, then the starter is not drawing sufficient power to turn the engine, or something is preventing it, and the battery is OK.

 

Dave H

[tony pashley]

Phil-have a quick look at the alternator terminals and connections-not had exactly your symptoms but have tracked a few niggles down to this area before.

[Simos]

Had many of these probs and more when my alternator went fruitloop. The diode pack had died - £25 recon at local motor factors.

 

I also a month later had the same when the exciter wire (the little one) broke so the alternator didn't work properly. This was nasty cos it broke at the spade but the end was still abutting it so it looked ok and worked at certain revs. Check the connectors carefully ! I probably broke it when I installed the replacement.

 

The above failed to charge the battery so it'd run from a jumpstart but not start by itself unless I put the battery on charge.

 

I had much the same when my (banner) battery died, it would run from the (good) alternator from a jump start but would only just turn the motor over.

 

Also clean all the earths esp the one on the bell housing.

[philwaters]

Thanks guys, I'll have a good look at the alternator but I measured the charging voltage when I fitted the new battery and was getting a good 14.5v on my hard to read dial multi-meter.

 

Lets hope the summer doesn't happen while I am trying to sort this out smile.gif

 

Phil Waters

Zetec is in and running wink.gif

[John Howe]

Phil if it is any comfort, when hot I have a similar problem following the winter rebuild. Car starts well when cold, battery condition is fine, new alternator and starter (in fact have tried two...). But when warm it will often fail to kick over compression unless the car has sat for 15 minutes.

 

My next play is to try larger leads from the battery, though I suspect a bigger battery might be the answer -if only there was one that would fit!

 

JH

 

 

[markb905]

I only have a problem starting the car when it's hot, and i had the problem last summer but it stopped durring the winter!!, i have today ordered a heatsheild from Demon theives on the basis if i keep it cooler it should be OK, any views!

 

Mark Bennett

[Graham Sewell]

Incidentally, getting an ammeter that can read 180A is rare. Most do 10A tops. Now my 'A' level physics says that you can use a shunt if you can find one, but again I haven't seen one of these outside a school laboratory.

 

Low tech luddite - xflow and proud!

[Steve Kirk]

Your symptoms sound like insufficient starter current. This will be due to either a flat battery (and as you have a new one this points to a charging problem), or a high resistance in the starter circuit.

 

Check that your alternator belt is not slipping. Check for about half an inch of movement when you press it firmly with your thumb at a point midway between the pulleys. Any more than that is too loose and the alternator might not be charging. Also check the alternator mounts below the alternator itself. These can come loose too with vibration, these are hard to see because they're hidden, I had this on my car recently and James Whiting spotted it instantly.

 

If the alternator belt is old it can slip so you might want to consider swapping it.

 

Check also that your alternator pulley size is right. If it's too small it will whizz round too quick and wear out the alternator quicker; if it's too big it won't generate enough current at lower revs.

 

Also I'd second the advice already given to get your alternator electrically checked. They do die ocasionally, especially when they get a good cooking close to the exhaust. If you get really stumped, why not exchange it for a recon one anyway? They're not expensive.

 

Also check your earth straps. This is often overlooked but can have some bizarre effects. Check the one from the battery to the chassis, and from the engine to the chassis. Both should have bare metal to bare metal contact. You might want to undo them and clean up the contacts then refit them. If the contact there is not good, this can develop a high resistance in the starting circuit which can reduce the current to the starter. Slightly more obscure is that it is possible that you have a high resistance in the earth from the starter to engine. Yes I know they're both metal and it sounds stupid, but this can happen!

 

As already suggested, new battery leads (and/or earthstraps) are a possible fix, if your current ones have developed a high resistance (maybe intermittently, ie a dodgy connection). Try taking off the ones you have and measuring their resistance.

 

 

Edited by - Steve Kirk on 19 May 2002 14:01:53

[Steve Kirk]

Check also for high resistance or bad connection from alternator to battery. This would explain why the battery was not charging.

 

 

[Gridgway]

JH, I had similar probs in my vauxhall viva many years ago. I rebuilt it with my Dad (car mechanic) due to low OP on tickover. When we came to bolt up the reground crank we found it would only turn if 2 out of the 3 mains were cranked up! We had no funds to do anything else so we bolted it up and hoped. It took 2 fully charged batteries to crank and fire, but ran. It actually ran fine but would never re-start (or even turn over) after it had stopped when it was hot! We concluded it was a warped block. AFter about 5k miles it loosened up and was fine (revved to about 6.5k). It did regain the OP light on at tickover though! Sold it after about 30k miles after the re-build!

 

Graham

[neilsjuke]

To check the engine earth put you volt meter on the battary earth terminal and onto the engine and turn the engine over there should be less than 1/2 a volt reading .If you are local to Maidstone i could check this for you quicker than typeing how to do it.you do need a mother of a amp meter to check starter amps.

[Gridgway]

not really, just a sensible car meter with a shunt. does amps fine.

Graham

[neilsjuke]

When a starter enggages the current can peek at 350 to 450 amp if ther are no other faults all amp meters have some form of shunts in them unless of the induction clamp over type I have both types by Crypton Snap On and A.V.O. only wanted to offer to test the car

and cut the tecnical jargon as I dont think he will find a large amp meter in Halfords etc.

[philwaters]

Thanks for the offer, but I am a bit far away in Bracknell.

 

I notice from Steve Kirk's posting that the alternator pulley might be critical. How critical? I was beginning to wonder about this myself. The one I have came from Raceline and was one of those 'well, it is more expensive, so it must be better' moments. It is bigger than standard at about 90mm diameter, with the standard being about 60mm. I checked all my litriture and it does say it is for extended high rpm (7000) useage. When I first got the car on the road I was having to run it in, so I was able to go about 4000rpm. I am still not going much about 5500rpm on rare occasions, while I get used to it, and tend to cruise around at 2500-3000rpm most of the time.

Could this mean it is spinning to slow - it would tie in with the car not feeling charged up at the end of a trip

 

Phil Waters

Zetec is in and running wink.gif

[Steve Kirk]

If I'd were you I'd start at the high level and try to work out whether the problem is a charging one or a starting one. In other words is it that the battery is not charging, or is it that the starter is not delivering enough welly? (Although as Graham suggested, there could be other problems such as the engine being tight). Once you know the problem area you can narrow down on the cause.

 

You don't mention if the charging/battery warning light comes on or not when you are driving. If it does this might indicate a charging problem rather than a starting problem. If it does come on, does it go off when you increase the revs? This might give you an idea whether the pulley is overgeared (although this would also be the symptom of a loose or slipping belt).

 

You mentioned the warning light dimming rather than going out when the ignition is turned off, this sounds weird to me - I'd suspect the electrics inside your alternator as Len suggested, rather than the pulley.

 

To test if the pully might be the issues, what about if you go out and drive using more revs for a bit, then stop the engine, will the car then start properly? If so then the pulley (or an alternator fault) might be your problem; if not then it's probably something else.

 

If the alternator pulley is bigger, the "gearing" is reduced and the alternator will spin slower for a given engine speed. This reduces the current that it can potentially generate. Anecdotally I've heard figures of at least 3000 rpm being required to maintain charge, assuming proper pulley gearing; if yours is half as big again as the standard pulley, this implies that you would need half as many of those revs again (ie 4500rpm). I don't know enough about alternators to know whether this 3000 rpm figure is accurate - does someone else know that? - but in principle if the engine was not being revved very much then this might explain a charging problem.

 

 

[STEVE GILBERT]

Woh Woh hold on a minuite,

what about the Ignition timing? If your timing at cranking speed is too far advanced it will fire the cylinder early enough to stop the engine dead no mater how healthy the start system. I have a 200plus hose Zetec and it is very particular about the position of the throttle, are you 3d? If I give it too much gas it does exactly what you describe and stops the engine dead, if I just give a little it will crank at full tilt and fire immediately. Try cranking without any throttle then give just a little, or zero your throttle pot. What ignition set up do you have? mine is the Dunnell 3d unit, it may just be that they all do that

[neilsjuke]

Yes this could be a Eu /temp sender fault as far as the starting circit goes check the voltages at the terminal form the batt down pass the soliode then to the starter body post should be within 1 volt,when the fault is there put the head lights on and see if they dim if you have a good battary the should not dim too much but the w/l staying on may also be a eu fault / give me a ring on 01622 814400 Neil

[Julian Thompson]

Some really interesting comments here to which I'll respond from an auto electrician's standpoint-

 

Do not try to get an ammeter in circuit with the starter. Bad idea. You do definately need a clamp on inductive type meter for this reading as the chap who states the 300A peak load is quite right.

 

Don't get too lost in the pulley, either. Make sure it is tight. Belt OK. End of.

 

Definately check the earths always - they can be little rascals and remember, bad earth equals more resistance equals less voltage and less efficiency - ie more amps drawn.

 

Don't lose sight of the fact that the 7 is a simple machine with little electrical overhead compared to a "normal" car and so starting and charging should be absolutely no problem.

 

Remember that you cannot test the alternator without knowing, 100% that your battery is in peak condition. I test them on a fully charged, new battery at work. The reason is that the alternator will respond to load placed accross it and in the same way a knackered battery won't charge from a charger, it won't charge from your alternator.

 

The test itself revolves around changing the load on the electrical system of the car and varying the revs of the engine, and watching the battery voltage. The regualtor in the alternator should control the charging voltage into the (good) battery to a maximum of around 14.5 volts. You get a "feel" for a good alternator and it takes 10 seconds to get it. Try to vary the load and revs and see that the alternator responds. Load it up with heater, lights and fan at low revs - you should hear the engine groan a bit under load from the alternator but the voltage should stay strong - then rev the motor and make sure the reg doesn't let the voltage surge to about 16 or something. Then cut the load immediately and totally and see that it doesn't drop to 11V at idle )ie a discharge situation.

 

Another common problem is a that a knackered reg / diode pack can actually cause the alternator (which is, remember, a big electric motor in reverse!!!) to "leak" current at varying degrees of severity. Check current draw on the car ignition off and immobiliser armed. You're looking for a very small amount, say, 50ma. If you've got 1/4 of an amp or something then you're stuffed.

 

Finally, we used to sell recon stuff, but it is massively variable. Remember that all recons are equal but some recons are more equal than others!! Always suspect your starter!

 

To sum up;

 

1) New battery + full charge overnight.

2) Check all earths.

3) Start car - any probs and its your starter.

4) Check charging - any probs and its your alternator.

5) Stop car + check current draw.

6) Drive car/get hot, check restart. Any probs it's your starter solenoid.

 

(Bit simplistic but should help a bit?)

 

Ju

[philwaters]

Thanks guys,

 

Certainly giving me a nice few things to check.

 

As for my lamp - well it acts normally, comes on nice and bright at ignition on, then goes out as soon as the engine starts and isn't seen again, no matter what the revs. Only strange thing was that dimming down, but on Saturday when it started fine from being on the battery conditioner it didn't do this again.

 

My car is 3d mapped with Racelines ecu, which is the GEMS unit. I haven't plugged it in to see what the cranking advance is set to, but it is possible I guess. The throttle pot is a pain to set up, but does this do anything when cranking over? I spoke to Raceline about the pulley and they agree - it shouldn't really be an issue.

 

Got to say, I am stronly suspecting my alternator now. Anyone know where I can get it tested in the Bracknell/Reading area? I will try your test procedure first though as I don't think I can get it off without either removing the exhasut or the water hoses. Doh!

 

Phil Waters

Zetec is in and running wink.gif

[I.Mupferit]

Hi Phil sorry to hear about your starting woes, hope you get it sorted soon.

Out of interest you can, just about, get the alternator off without removing hoses or exhaust primaries - I know as I have done it. Mind you, by the time you have paid for a skin graft operation on your knuckles, it might have been cheaper to pay somebody else to sort it for you!

 

Good luck with it. thumbsup.gif

 

Brent

[philwaters]

Hi Brent,

 

Thanks, out of interest, did you have alternator trouble? I am wondering if it is a little too close to the exhaust for comfort.

 

I had a rolling road session before I went out to Spain and the car is a lot better now, but maybe a little rich (might be in my head). I am really pleased when it is running, just a pain to always be wondering if it is going to start again at the other end of a trip sad.gif

 

Phil Waters

Zetec is in and running wink.gif

[Big Brother]

Phil,

do you want to swap your Zetec for a high reving well sorted crossflow? wink.gif

 

Get it to Broadstairs (Bay-Watch) this weekend and I will tow you home if necessary!

 

Steve

79' Crossflow Supersprint

"The original X-Power"

www.Se7en-Up.co.uk id=green>

 

[philwaters]

Watch it Motts'y boy or I'll get my wet and dry out on your nice shiny black bits wink.gif

 

Have cried off of Bay Watch as we need to test Steve's dry sump system before the next race - getting a bit tight time scale wise.... I'm sure it will be great weather, Pam A will make an appearance and run up and down the beach in slow-mo just for you to watch... if I go with my luck it would be Mo Moland and raining!

 

Phil Waters

Zetec is in and running wink.gif