piccies of your bare loom - scuttleless

[Tonycaterham]

 

Re-doing(de-bodging) my loom and in the past have seen piccies of various igenious ways of remounting fuseboxes relays,loom etc etc. Usual story seen lots in the past but when you specifically go looking can you I find any can I ****

 

I am looking to simplify my wiring as much as possible and make the scuttle top easily removable ( I'm running a full SLR cage) so should not be too difficult.

Had the idea of cutting the scuuttle sides about 4 inches up to clear cage and battery cut off then making up interal mounts so top half of scuttle can lift away from lower sectons. Will rivnut to scuttle vertical plate.

 

So links to piccies from those that have been there and done it would be appreciated.

 

 

Tony

 

 

L7 EVL

[Nick Chan]

Julian Thompson is pretty impressive with this stuff here

 

Nick

 

The BEC has gone - now onto an R400!!

[Rob Walker]

Yuk nasty crimp connectors, these have no place on a quality automotive installation

[rj]

I've used 3M Dual Lock to fit my fusebox.

 

No wires passes the scuttle, hence it's very easy to remove.

 

 

/r

[Tonycaterham]

Thanks for the response

 

any more piccies please?

 

Tony

 

 

L7 EVL

[Peter Carmichael]

here and here

 

Edited by - Peter Carmichael on 29 Dec 2007 01:22:51

[Julian Thompson]

Just to add that the pics on that website are of my wiring scheme after an interim tidy up, mid season after buying the car from Nick in the early season No rewiring was done - it was all a tidying excercise.

 

However, Rob - I am afraid that you are talking absolute nonsense of the highest order

 

Crimp connectors are used on every automotive installation and are fully accepted by the VSIB as a method of termination on to a spade lug. There really is no other way of doing it.

 

You can of course buy nicer crimp terminals which have a separate insulation cover rather than the standard ones used on that install but they make little or no difference to the resistance of the connection as long as the person doing the connection knows what he is up to.

 

Or, as Peter has done with his custom made loom there you can use heatshrink over everything at the connection points as both mechanical support and strain relief but the basis of the loom will still be crimp connectors at its heart. Did you know (well obviously not otherwise you'd not have said it) that you can spend £2000 on a crimp tool to certain crimping standards? Would that still result in a "nasty" connector then?

 

Furthermore, just to pee on your smoking bonfire slightly more, just before you dig out the soldering iron and solder all of your "quality automotive connectors" at the components you do need to remember that the solder will run down the wire and cause a weak point at the bit where the solder ends, and also, of course, you run the risk of heat soak damaging your lovely components if you try to solder directly to them.

 

In summary then, just in case anyone is sat there wondering about how to terminate cables the answer is that you can choose from a range of crimp connectors from inexpensive coloured ones such as the ones on the pictures Nick linked to OR you can use uninsulated ones like Peter has likely used (unless the switches are lug type in which case you STILL have to crimp a ring terminal on there!) and then plan your own insulation strategy with the aim of making it look like Peter's. The point is that investing in a decent crimp tool is the important bit - don't struggle with a £5 pressed steel non ratchet tool.

 

Would suggest, Rob, that you pick a subject that your victim knows nothing about before becoming the mindless assailant, otherwise, as in this case, you are likely to get mugged.

[Rob Walker]

Julian,

 

I stand by my criticism of the blue crimp spade terminals that you have used in this application, and for once I am qualified to make such a criticism as I was MOD trained for 5 years in industrial electronics. The problem with this type of crimp is that crushes down on/across the strand/cores of the cable on point contact, then as the wiring moves under vibration the copper cores work harden and can break, the terminal can then come loose or you end up with a proportion of the cores not connected.

 

I would have used a crimp connection that is folded along the cores and added a support sleeve. Solder and support with heat shrink sleeving as used on virtually every military connection on the vehicle looms.

 

Sorry but I think that it is you that is lacking the necessary knowledge and experience.

 

Edited by - Rob Walker on 29 Dec 2007 09:22:52

[david nelson]

When i worked at BMW this was a topic of great discussioin. The chaps on the shop floor had always soldered the joints and were very put out when BMW said they needed to crip them.

 

I beleave BMW felt that criping was a better solution than soldering as soldering was more likley to fail

 

David

 

[Rob Walker]

David,

 

There are pros and cons for both methods , BT wrap their joints. I think the main problem with soldering is the skill level required to do it properly and the associated costs there is also a proplem with toxic fumes.

[Bricol]

I was told by a mate working for Lucas aerospace that they never solder aircraft looms for the very reason of the wire becoming brittle and breaking down the wire under the insulation where the solder penetrated too - so he figured if it was good enough for aerospace, it was good enough for his rally car and crimped - and I've not had too many problems since following his example and using a proper, calibrated, crimping tool

 

Bri

[Julian Thompson]

Rob

 

Now you begin to make sense - why not explain yourself when making such a sweeping generalisation which looked like you were saying "crimps are nasty"!

 

The blue connectors are not the absolute pinnacle, of course - the centre fold ones you discuss are better, for sure, but actually the plastic body of the connector actually clamps the insulation of the cable at the entry, which means that the body of the connector acts in exactly the same way as your heatshrink - ie mechanical support of the strands. The difference is in time to do it - that was very much an interim measure, but, I have to say that...

 

I've been fitting that type of crimp connectors to cars in the field for nearly 20 years. During that time I have NEVER had a single one fail as long as it was properly executed and had a cable strain relief. This, I guess, is a good advert for them and therefore I'm not sure that the idea that they have "no place" is something we perhaps will have to agree to disagree about. They work very well, so they must have a place in a world where cost is an issue. If you were quoting to rewire a 7 most people baulk at costs anyway - can you imagine adding another few hours to the bill to use high end connectors?

 

As to soldering the high end centre fold type connectors you mention - well - as David says, it's a contentious issue, but, if you were hand building something like a military loom with a big budget I guess you could check each connector really carefully after doing it - I can see that it would be double excellent if done with that level of care so the solder can't run outside the body of the crimp, but I guess BMW etc.. can't afford that level of QC on production run looms.

 

In summary, then, I believe that if you could be bothered to make a negative comment you should have qualified your criticism of that installation as you have done now, because you spoiled my breakfast with that earlier

 

- argument/discussion settled.

[Tonycaterham]

 

Peter, thanks for the piccies one neat installation!

 

Soldered vs crimped well I didn't want to start a war 😳 I just wanted some nice piccies for a bit of inspiration/guidance, however it has kept my post near the top.

 

Anyway this is the season of peace and goodwill (If only on blatchat, given recent events) so as Julian says shake and chill

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

L7 EVL

[Julian Thompson]

 

 

[Rob Walker]

Julian,

 

Sorry for the terse original post it was out of order.

 

Whilst we are on this subject the other main problem with using this type of crimp spade connector relates to the crimping tool. The tool crushes the crimp to the designated hole size on the crimping tool. This system makes no allowance for differing cable core sizes therefore its only too easy to overcrimp a cable size that is too big and under crimp a smaller cored cable, obviously experience is helpfull.

 

I do not consider spade connectors that can be folded/crimped longtitudaley are high end and cost only a few pence and the crimping tools can be had for around £35.

[CageyH]

Out of interest, where can I get some decent crimps, and a ratchet crimping plier from?

 

I'll be tidying up my dash soon...

 

Only dead fish go with the flow....!

[Julian Thompson]

Rob - me too

 

Cagey - anywhere really - try VWP (Vehicle Wiring Products)

[CageyH]

As I am in France, I might see if I can pick up a cheap set of Facom ratcher pliers.

 

Only dead fish go with the flow....!

[Mike Biddle]

I have some pics of how it SHOULD be done if someone will kindly post em somewhere for me.

[SLR No.77]

Crimping tools for non-insulated terminals

Crimping tools for pre-insulated terminals

Both from Vehicle Wiring Products Ltd.

 

Stu.

 

 

www.superse7ens.co.uk..........the rebuild 😬

 

 

[Tonycaterham]

Mike,

 

YHPM

 

 

Tony

 

 

L7 EVL

[millsn]

i've a fairly unsatisfactory way of mounting my relays/fuses etc. Peter, how did you get round this one? IS that what we're looking at in the first picture, is it solid state or something and is there a webwsite where that kit is described?

 

PS Reckon there ought to be a new 'smily' showing bonfires being put out by urination

[Alex Wong1697456877]

I took as much off the scuttle as I could - fuse boxes etc all mounted to the heater blanking plate, wiper gubbins mounted to chassis under the left side of the dash. I also cut a vertical groove so that the wiring can drop straight out when you lift the scuttle. Takes about 10 mins to remove the scuttle now.

[millsn]

my loom is all out of the car at the mo. Therefore any good suggestions are welcome. I've alot of tidying uyp to do as the car was a XF is now a zetec and the routing to the alternator (now on a different side) and the ECU all wants reassessing to tidy up. My 'fusebox' is a modular affair that I'm not happy with, holds relays etc. IU suspect there is a far better solution available.

[JACK FLASH]

Some ideas and remarks from the Continent.

 

1. Apart from the look of a wiring loom, it also has to function properly. So use good quality wires with a section that is large enough. To my opinion it is better to use a little bit overdimensioned wires in order to minimize the voltage drop.

 

2. Wire everything up so that is very easy to remove the scuttle. I am in the process of updating my 1987 wiring loom in that way.

 

3. Use good quality connectors. Without starting the discussion about the type of connectors again, I would just like to gives some quotes out of a handbook on the physics of electrical equipment.

 

"Avoid the combination of different materials, f.i. copper and iron or copper and aluminium, in order to minimize the effects of contact corrosion." "Soldering electrical connections can cause damage to the wire, insulation and electrochemical corrosion." "Insulated crimp terminals have been developed for the aircraft industry by AMP (Aircraft and Marine Products) and if installed correctly they are the best solution for an environment with vibration and changing temperatures".

 

Personally I also like the old type crimp terminals (not insulated, folding longitudinal with a separate plastic insulation cap) more than the insulated type and this just for the look of it !

 

4. Label the wires and connectors and make a drawing since I have noticed that one forgets very quickly.

 

Jack Flash