1400ss to 1800ss conversion.

[Brucey]

I'm toying with the idea of doing the above conversion if only to be able to keep in front of the latest generation of hot hatches!

 

I have a 1993 1400k ss with 43K on the clock. I have fitted an ally rad, apollo tank and verniers but apart from that it's pretty standard in the engine bay.

 

I've tried searching the archives on this subject, but I keep getting an error message.

 

The things I think I know:

My engine is too old to just swap crank, liners & pistons.

I want to retain as much of the existing parts (ecu, cams, plenum chamber, exhaust etc) as possible to keep the cost down.

I've probably got to cut a chunk off the gearbox input shaft (I may go for a long first conversion while the engines out)

I have to change to cream injectors

I have to do something to the crank sensor teeth to fool the ecu.

 

The things I don't know:

Will any 1800 K block do ?(loads of Freelander ones on e bay & a new 120bhp 1800 Elise engine )

Do I use my head and cams as they are super sport items?

Are there EU2/EU3 issues?

Can I use my old sump on a newer engine if I drill the holes from 6mm to 8mm?

Would it be easier to go 1600Kss route?

Realistically, how much is it going to cost and is it worth it? (I'm assuming my car will go down in value as it will no longer be original)

 

I want to end up with a good, fresh engine (not somthing with 100K on it!) and I can plod through to do most of the work myself.

 

There is the option of selling my 1400Kss (worth around £8,500 to £9000) and buying another one with a bigger engine, but where's the fun in that?

 

Your collective wisdom would be appreciated.

 

Bruce.

 

 

 

Edited by - brucey on 27 Sep 2007 17:58:56

[Willie.]

Do it. The 1.8 K Series as a Supersport is brilliant. Mine (Started as a '94 1.4ss, now a 1.8ss) makes 148bhp (On plastic plenum & SS ECU)...although it does have the head ported too. The 1.8 doesn't rev as high, develops max power about 6000rpm, but has bags more torque. Definetly worth doing.

 

There's no point in going to 1600, as it'll cost the same and not give as much.

 

Cost is the price of the engine and a head gasket set...if you do all the work yourself.

 

Swap your head if it is the high port head. To check this, there should be a 1 - 2mm dip behind the face of number 2 inlet port on the head (See DVA's site for detail). If it's not, just put your cams and verniers into the new head. This is where you may get the EU2/3 problem. Your's will drive the distributor off the back of the head, so use your head if you can. If it's not a high port head, and the new one is, but is EU3, check to see if there's a blanking plate that you can remove (I'm unsure).

 

You don't need to touch the crank sensor, all you have to change external to the engine is the injectors, trim the gearbox shaft, and grind a lump out of the block, the last web, to let the starter fit.

 

Yes, you can use your old sump, but you will need to drill out the holes. Try to get an 8mm slot drill, as this will give you a flat end to the hole, as opposed to the tapered end a normal drill gives (You want a nice flat face for the washer/bolt to pull against).

 

Check prices on pistonheads.com for a 1.4k and then for a 1.8k. You won't be loosing value, it'll be worth more and you'll have alot more fun.

 

If you want a really fresh engine, put in new big end bearings while you're at it. I built my 1.8SS from a Freelander engine than had blown the headgasket and bent all the inlet valves...its as sweet as a nut.

 

😬

[Brucey]

Op,

Thanks for the useful info. I've had a quick peek at my head and it looks like I've got the older (high port) head ☹️ Would this make sense on a 93 vintage car?

 

If your 1800 engine is making 148bhp, I assume thats got to be around 20bhp more than a std 1400ss which sounds pretty worthwhile for quite a modest outlay.

 

With more torque it would make even more sense to add the long first box mod onto my wish list.

 

I guess if it would be best to look for a later EU2 low port head 1800 engine so I can build most of it out of the car.

 

I'm also assuming I'll have to retime the verniers on the new engine.

 

How much money are we talking about in ball park figures?

 

How much difference does an extra 20bhp make to a 7? I have to say revving the nuts off the engine just to keep up with Golf TD's is beginning to loose its appeal!

 

Did you fit an apollo, the original starter and big alternator?

 

Bruce.

 

Edited by - Brucey on 27 Sep 2007 22:53:20

[Willie.]

Bruce,

 

If you've got a High Port head, you're in luck...it's the one you want. Mine was also a High Port head, and was similar vintage to yours, so it sounds sensible. Look at DVAs site for better info.

 

I haven't driven one with a long first, so I can't say wether it's worthwhile or not. Personally I like mine the way it is, first is long enough...I could do with a longer 6th though.

 

If you want the easiest life, simply grab an EU2 1800, pull it's head off, and put yours on. You'll not need to alter timing if that worrys you. Make sure you get a Cam locking tool, they're very handy. Set both engines to 90BTDC, lock the cams on your head, pull both off and swap.

 

I don't have an apollo fitted, but fitted all the original parts, starter, altenator etc, yep.

 

The extra power makes a big difference...very noticable. Takes a bit to get used to, but it's lovely when you do. Feels really grunty and strong.

 

My entire conversion cost me about £400. But I got a cheap engine.

[Englishmaninwales]

The things I don't know:

Will any 1800 K block do ?(loads of Freelander ones on e bay & a new 120bhp 1800 Elise engine)YES.

Do I use my head and cams as they are super sport items?YES

Are there EU2/EU3 issues?NO, BOTH ARE COMPATIBLE

Can I use my old sump on a newer engine if I drill the holes from 6mm to 8mm?YES

Would it be easier to go 1600Kss route?SAME EFFORT AND COST, BUT BETTER OPTION IF 6 SPEED

Realistically, how much is it going to cost and is it worth itI DID IT FOR £1200, SOME HAVE DONE IT FOR ALOT LESS (I HAD A NEW ENGINE BUILT BY DVA PLUS OTHER COSTS)

With more torque, it would also make even more sense to add the long first box mod YES, GOOD MOD

And how much difference does an extra 20bhp make to a 7? INCREASE IN TORQUE MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE

Did you fit an apollo, the original starter and big alternator?YES

 

Blatmail me and I'll send you full details!

 

Malcolm

 

Edited by - Englishmaninwales on 27 Sep 2007 23:05:01

[Englishmaninwales]

Can I use my old sump on a newer engine if I drill the holes from 6mm to 8mm?

Brucey, I have a wet sump with 8mm fixings and Im looking for an early 1400 wet sump with 6mm fixings......Exchange?

 

Malcolm

[john aston]

The 1400 may have have 130bhp peak power but at 3-4k they produce what feels like just enough ponies to pull skin from rice pudding.Iwas amazed at the sheer anyrevs grunt which my VVC had after 6years of 1400ss.The difference is huge in normal driving and stil big at high revs.

[Tony Whitley]

I simply bought an old 1800 engine (happened to be EU3, cost me £400), fitted the flywheel from the 1400 (needed to keep the MEMS happy) and dropped it straight in then put in the cams from my Supersport (no need to remove head to do that). TB and plenum from the SS, injectors from the 1800, job done.

 

I've read that you should increase the fuel pressure but mine's been fine.

 

[Mick Day]

I had my 1994 1.4 converted in 2000. Difficult then as few people were willing to share things. I did it the hard way with a complete doner engine plus TB's & a new GEMS ECU. No sweat today but little things like different injection cycles & the need for a new coil floored us for a while.

 

So any engine block will do but it'll need fettling to fit the starter motor plus a little fettling to clearance the Apollo tank hoses etc.

 

*nono*You'll need a new coil that bolts to the side of the engine block. EDITED to say you don't need to change the coil if using the 1.4 ECU.

 

Retain the 1.4 flywheel so you can use the original ECU. A 1.8 Rover flywheel will not fit the bellhousing.

 

There are probably just as many 1.6's out there as 1.8's. My conversion was to a 1.6 but if doing today I'd go straight to a 1.8. Apart from a little bit more go you'll have the good basis for even more go when you decide to uprate. Mines now 1.9 with a DVA modified VVC head. By the way if you decide to go the VVC route, & run the VVC mechanism, you'll need the loom (& ECU) to run it.

 

If you have a "standard" 1.4 head then just swap out the cams for your SS ones.

 

The new engine may come with a fuel rail & injectors but I think the 1.4 injectors will be OK.

 

You'll need the Caterham sump & oil pick-up. As you mention you'll need to enlarge the fixing holes.

 

Cutting the bit off the end of the gearbox input shaft is not difficult (good excuse to buy an angle grinder). You'll also need to fit a spigot bearing & sleeve to the crank. Available for pence from CC.

 

I could of moved my 1.4 on in 2000 & bought something else but hey my car is my car & like you said where's the fun in doing it the easy way.

 

Edited by - Mick Day on 28 Sep 2007 16:33:18

[SLR No.77]

Brucey, there's a load more info here

Basically you swap the main mechanical bits to 1800 retaining your head/cams.

Use your old ECU and flywheel which are set up to work together, and keep the forward facing Supersport ally plenum and TB - the TB is a bigger throat than fitted to the 16/1800 SS cars.

You'll need 1800 (straw coloured) injectors to replace the blue ones you already have. Which fuel pressure regul;ator is needed is still open to question.

Keep the old coil, but the sump is likely to need drilling out as mentioned due to it's age. Fit a new spigot bearing and sleeve to the crank. A couple of bits of grinding here and there (gearbox input shaft and block were starter motor and Apollo hoses fit) asnd you're done.

 

I'm now waiting for Englishmaninwales to add more info to go on the web-page. Malcolm's probably put more miles and stresses through his conversion (using this method) than anyone else I can think of - it wasn't long before I got the bug and started messing with an Emerald and multi throttle bodies!

 

Stu.

 

www.superse7ens.co.uk..........the rebuild 😬

 

 

[Mick Day]

*idea*Stu

 

If only we'd had your info in 2000, it would have saved a lot time.

 

Edited: whoops wrong name.

 

Edited by - Mick Day on 28 Sep 2007 18:07:31

[Brucey]

OpLoc,

I'll have a good look at my head again over the weekend. Changing/checking the cam timing isn't a problem as I fitted the verniers myself and have the dial guages and brackets.

 

Malcolm

Machining the holes in the sump is no problem either as I have a small mill in the shed and need an excuse to use it! but I will contact you before I do the job incase we can swap.

 

I was a little confused over using a 1400 head on an 1800 block, but I guess the combustion chambers are the same.

 

I'll defenately change the headgaskit and dowels to DVA items befor fitting anyway.

 

Stu,

Thanks for that link, it explains everything I need to know

 

I guess I will need to notify the DVA if going to 1800cc

 

There seem to be plenty of 1800 K engines about. I've just got to get the right one at the right price.

 

Sooo....

1800 block

New clutch

Head Gaskit Set

Mintex front pads

cream injectors

Long first box (If I've got any money left)

 

If I can do it (without the geabox mod) for less than £800, I'll be happy!

 

Bruce.

[oilyhands]

Check your liner heights are OK before putting on the head.

 

The chambers are the same size on all K16 heads.

 

"I guess I will need to notify the DVA if going to 1800cc"

 

Nah, just let the *DVLA* know 😬

 

If you post the casting number from above inlet port 2 here I will tell you the type of head.

 

oily

[Englishmaninwales]

Brucey, re sump.. thanks

 

Malcolm

[Simon_hill]

Brucey,

 

If you find a complete 1800 engine, then I don't think there's any point in taking off the head (unless you're going to port it, or it needs refreshing), as the 1.8 head should be the high port head - just save yourself the work and drop the cams straight in.

 

I did mine at Christmas and apart from a false start with the cam timing (thought I could just put the two engines in the same position and swap everything over - erm no), it's been great.

 

Edited to add cost info - I paid about £700 for an 11k mile engine then on top of that

Flywheel bolts from Rover (~£20)

Spigot and bearing from CC (dunno, £20?)

New sump gasket (~£20)

Inlet manifold gasket (~12)

Service items - oil, filter, plugs etc (£40) If the engine's been sat a while, put some crap oil in first to flush it through- - mine had moisture in it, which made me think it was the head gasket at first

 

So about £800, not including new tools, which isn't bad for the extra performance you get.

 

Edited by - Simon_hill on 29 Sep 2007 09:38:16