Caterham 21's in next years Speed Championship

[henry21p]

Last time my 21 ran at a timed session at curborough, just for comparison puropses, my 160bhp very old and not very well set up 21 was running within less than 1.5s of Neil Cavanagh's 140bhp SV on some stickier tyres.

 

I think Gordon's not entirely right about stopping - at the time that the 21 was tested by autocar, it was the fastest stopping car they'd ever tested, including the 7. Something to do with tyres & stiffness of the chassis. I can vouch for this from trackdays as well.

 

I'll be running 183bhp by the time the car's back on the road, which puts me in a class under current regs that would mean i'm uncompetitive, but would hope for a sub 61s time, so I might beat one or two people on the day.... Wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

 

My request to the club has always been for Caterham 21 owners (we do have our own 21's only days etc) to be invited as a "guest" club/group to events where the L7CGB is undersubscribed. This prevents us taking up places that would otherwise be taken by 7 owners. This includes the club trackday Spa (and I'm still very annoyed about being refused last time, despite having listened to the arguments) and extends to potential inclusion in guesting at sprints.

 

Would be delighted to chase your times round circuit should i be invited.

[henry21p]

BTW - is the FIA roll bar MANDATORY or ADVISORY for the 7 Club sprints?

[mav]

Currently Mandatory, which is why you will not see any std bar cars at club sprints and trackdays...

[kart]

For what it's worth I say let the 21s play - they're Sevens in spirit if not in bodywork and it's not like there are many of them ☹️.

However in order to maintain a level playing field and given recent advances in the application of carbon fibre and kevlar may I suggest a restriction on the type of paddle they're allowed to use 😬 😬 😬.

[henry21p]

Paddle or pedals? 😬

[kart]

Definitely paddles .

[henry21p]

If we're allowed then I might set a challenge to 1 or 2 people I know and enter them in the same car, see who can paddle it round fastest.

 

Reckon I'll save a wooden paddle prize for any 7's that are beaten by it. 😬

[rgrigsby]

Me me me I'd like to have ago in a 21 😬

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[henry21p]

No problem at all - you're welcome to have a go any time (usual bend it, mend it rules apply!)

[Powderpuff]

Careful David....Rob would be odds on favourite to show you just how fast a 21 can go

[henry21p]

I reckon I would give anyone a challenge to pedal my little red car as fast as I can.... I've had my backside in the driver's seat for 100,000 miles and (I worked it out recently), over 3000 on circuits, too. Now, that might not mean that I've gone fast compared to you "pants on fire" 7'ers... but good enough in my 21. 😬

[Nifty]

I've argued this point for a while now on various threads etc.

I was also insistent that 21s should be included in all the 50th events that we (the 50th committee) were in charge of -though I don't recall there being much argument from my comrades.

 

I think the whole argument is a little facile and is based on semantics.

As has been said before the 21 bears a closer relationship to an S3 Lotus/Caterham than an S4 or a CSR.

Had Caterham not named it the 21 but had called it the 7SC (or similar) this argument would probably not occur and had they named the CSR 7 a Caterham 30 then the argument would be over them and not the 21.

 

Since there are so few made and even fewer that would potentially take part then there is not going to be a sudden rush of them overshadowing the 7s, as there vwould be if we openned the club up to other copies.

 

The 21 is all part of the 7s heritage and I believe we should embrace them within the club as much as we do any other Lotus/Caterham 7 variant. We'd all jump at the chance of seeing The Black Brick compete but that's as close to a factory 7 as a Donkeywart ❗

 

As for the class, either stick them in the class as they stand now according to engine and tyres or if there is a genuine consensus that they are slower then make an allowance for them in a lower class.

 

For those who have expressed an opinion that the above would be unfair, are you a true racer or a glory boy. If they represent a challenge pick up the gauntlet and prove yourself.

Since I've put the R400 engine in my car I've moved up from class 3 to class 5 (running 032Rs because that's all I have - which I know aren't the tyre of choice for sprinting, may sort this over the winter). So I now sit on the grid with my 200bhp alongside 230-250 bhp Ks, 250+bhp VXs, large Duratecs etc. I have no chance of competing for honours with my 200 bhp ......... or do I 🤔

All the class winners below class 5 thrashed my best time.

Tam Calvert and I had a bit of friendly banter and rivalry when I did Curborough last year and I just pipped her with my 1400SS. Last weekend, now sporting 80 bhp more in my car, Tam kicked me from here to next week because she could drive her car and I couldn't drive mine. So, the moral is, it's the driver far more than it is the machine .. and thus 21s should present no fear or unfair competition, but the drivers may *thumbup*

 

 

 

[An aside]

One thing I do find strange is the novice system.

Last weekend at Curborough was only my third ever sprint, having competed once in 2005 and once in 2006, both also at Curborough.

Because I had held an MSA licence in a previous year I was not eligible to be considered a novice ... yet someone who had done all the 2007 calendar sprints would have vastly more experience than me but would still be classed a novice

Could the novice status be attributed to the number of events competed in rather than the year you first held a licence 🤔

Now, please don't think I am bitter ... I was way off any chance of polishing the novice's trophy (in fact, if I were in a class of my own I'd probably have come second). I raise this simply point because it does seem that it may be a little unjust with regard to a sporting ethos and may unfairly do someone else out of a chance to get their due reward.

 

[/An aside]

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

 

Edited by - Nifty on 4 Sep 2007 14:22:08

[Nifty]

Crikey, did I really just type all that ❗

 

Keep off the straight and narrow 😬

[henry21p]

Yes!

 

Thanks for the support all.

It looks like the over-riding factor is the absence of FIA-approved roll-over protection.

 

Despite having seen pictures and the uninjured survivor of a 21 on its roof, obviously, it's not FIA approved.

[neil.cavanagh]

and the fact that to an outsider they look more like an MX-5 or Elise than a Seven.

[henry21p]

only to 'outsiders' - the club doesn't like 'outsiders'. And elise? Well at least it's a lots (like the name of the club)

[Don]

 

Nifty - there's nothing strange in the novice system ... Curborough isn't the only venue on the calender. Most of us are 'novices' in the sense that it might be the first time we've ever done a particular course, even though we've had our licences for years and it puts us on an even playing field.

Different courses require different skills and so you would have an unfair advantage to gain novice points when you know Curborough, to someone who has never driven it before.

 

We missed the opportunity of being novices because we applied for our licences right at the end of the season ... not only did Rol miss the novice championship (against Neil!! 😔) it meant he had to plan for 8 events instead of 5 this year ... which in turn keeps the competition going. If everyone picks just their one favourite event a year to go to, the point of the Championship is lost.

 

The moral - enter more events, you'll get more out of it!!

 

Oh and Tam beats me at Curborough and I'm in Class 5, so we can commiserate together!!

[FlymoFraser]

Nifty

 

Please accept my abject apologies for winning the novice trophy in your stead, believe me no one was more surprised than me. 😬

 

I think "vastly more experienced" while flattering is rather an overstatement to apply to me as Curborough was only my 6th ever sprint.

 

The rules on novices at any one event or championship do vary but all you can really hope for is clarity and certainty in advance so that you can make your choice. If I knew at the begining what I know now I would have put the car on slicks entered a select number of venues in class 6 and possibly won the overall championship. However I probably wouldn't have had as much fun as I have had this year having the mickey taken out of me in class 1.

 

 

 

 

R287 Mobile Jaffa Cake- It's black at both ends with a smashing orangey bit in the middle here

[neil.cavanagh]

Dave.

outsiders opinion DOES matter when we are invited guests to events....

[Silver 21]

Neil

 

You seem to have a complete downer on 21's and are worried about what other car clubs might think, personally I think you are missing the point that Nifty made so eloquently above, 21's are part of the rich tapestry of the Lotus & Caterham 7's along with S4's, SV's & CSR.

 

Don't forget that I was the instigator of getting other clubs to accept us at their events as invited guests and I do not recall a single club saying you can only compete if its in a proper 7, in fact they like the variety as it adds to the attraction for their spectators.

 

This is an opportunity for non club members to see a complete range of cars and a bit of publicity for 7's, 21's and the club in general with the aid of good comentary sheets and there may well be people out there who prefer a 21 to a 7 but will still join the Lotus Seven Club as its the ONLY club that caters for the car, roll up new members, isn't that what its about 🤔

 

I can enter the 21 in lots of other championships without the fight and could compete tomorrow without a roll bar but this is the right club for the car.

 

Or are you worried we will all enter Class 4 and give you a hard time next year 😬 😬

 

 

 

Graham

 

21ing

 

Edited by - Silver 21 on 4 Sep 2007 22:40:00

[Irrelevant]

Or are you worried we will all enter Class 4 and give you a hard time next year

Tee he . . . .nails and head spring to mind 😬

 

FWIW - It wouldn't surprise me if D21P's car turns out to be pretty quick...it's stiff, powerful, will be expertly built , and might just surprise some people on the faster events.

 

[henry21p]

Adam, you're a gent. 😬

All this help from the club and it can't help but be well put together.

[Dannyboy]

Ahem....yes dave 😬 😬 😬

 

However, the rollover protection is one thing to do something about! I remember you showing me how the screen was fitted to the chassis 😳 😳

 

I'd like to see a few of them competing personally.....pretty cars, lots of noise.....and it boosts the numbers which seem to have dropped this year!

 

Bring 'em on! As for competitiveness....well, we'll never know until one competes!

 

Dave's car may well prove quick..... *tongue*>

 

Dannyboy

 

[Gambo]

As I said Let 'em in. But why does our club have this insistance on the FIA Bar? Ok Yes it is safer than the standard bar, no doubt, but it's still of little use if your head is above it, which I can assure you plenty in our club are. I was very close myself until i fitted a lowered floor.

 

RED 2.0 HPC 230BHP here

[Dannyboy]

I think it's part of the MSA regs that rollover protection is required to conform to FIA regs? Brian will know far more than I on this matter!

 

Dannyboy