Caterham 21's in next years Speed Championship

[Silver 21]

Before I start can I make it clear that I'm not trying to cause trouble, after all we have 1 TM already, we don't need another 😬.

 

I've spoken to a few of you about this but what I'm really looking for is support from the sprinting fraternity to allow 21's to compete in next years Club championship.

 

I'm not looking for special classes but more that the cars will compete in the relevant class based on engine and power output just like 7's do.

 

I know there is an issue of sorting out a rollbar but legally to compete the car does not need one (see MSA Blue Book for Roadgoing Cars)but the 7 club regs stipulate one is required so we need to either design a bar suitable to fit a 21 that meets MSA spec or not insist a roll bar is fitted.

 

The idea of this post is to generate support or not, I personally think it would be good to see 21's compete, others might not 🤔.

 

After all a 21 is based on a modified 7 chassis which makes it no different to an SV or a CSR so I cannot see any problems with eligability but others might.

 

Views 🤔

 

Graham

 

Edited by - Silver 21 on 31 Aug 2007 12:03:06

[Alex Wong1697456877]

OK ok. I'll be first.

 

JMHO.......... and not having thought it through...........and trying to choose my words carefully.......

 

I have no objecting to the club inviting owners of 21's to compete in the clubs sprints.

 

However, I do not see them as 7's with bodies on and therefore would prefer them to have their own class and compete against fellow 21's.

 

This invitation would extend only to 21's who's owners are members and is only and purely for the club's speed series.

 

If necessary, the invitation could be reviewed on an annual basis.

 

Just my opinion. Don't shoot me for it!

 

 

 

Edited by - Alex Wong on 31 Aug 2007 12:56:46

[mikes]

I would have absolutely no objection to 21s competing - I especially look forward to seeing how much faster one is in the hands of BB - and then perhaps I will be able to offer some constructive advice about driving 'new' cars.

It has got to be worth it just for that!!

 

A Saga Sevener

[Silver 21]

Mike 😬

[Englishmaninwales]

 

Malcolm

[neil.cavanagh]

Not wishing to offend those with 21s but I agree with Alex.

 

No matter what they share under the body they LOOK very different to a SIII, SV or CSR. Ask your average Joe to tell a SIII, SV or CSR apart and they couldn't, but a 21 is visually very different. This, IMHO, is important to how our club, and sprint series is viewed.

 

So, no I dont' object to 21s in general. Just so long as they were to run in their own group at the events.

 

Then as for how you'd score them as a 21 specific class would:

 

1) probably only have 1 or 2 cars in after the initiate buzz of excitment

2) could have 120 bhp variants on pilots agaisnt 250bhp+ on kumhos/slicks.

 

So you could argue you let them take part in the 'normal' class.. but then they might have a big aero advantage at the real fast venues (mira, aintree???), and what would happen if it was damp for the main group, and then dry when the 21s ran 20 min later at the end of the 7s???

[Gambo]

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest.( although for reasons I will not bore you with, I haven't sprinted this year) Why can't they run in the normal classes 🤔 Ok so at faster venues they might be a little quicker top speed, but they are heavier so have bigger braking distances and are slower in acceleration.

[Tam]

Hmmm

 

My heart says let 21s compete - they are Caterhams after all. 🥰 However, my head says that the purpose of the classes is to ensure, so far as possible, that like competes against like and I'm not sure you could ever say that about two cars which are completely different shapes . A 21s only class would solve that problem but perhaps create many more

 

Just my 2p worth

Tam

Drowned Rat Racing

 

 

[Nigel Fox]

As I understand it, less than 50 Caterham 21's were built, so it's unlikely they could support a class of their own. I can't see any reason to not allow 21's into existing classes.

However....the club bylaws however restrict entries to Lotus and Caterham 7's only. See new website/home/legal documentation. The club would effectively need to change it's constitution to embrace these cars.

 

 

[Irrelevant]

Let 'em in . . . . in the normal classes.

Chances are very few will turn up and if they do they'll be relatively slow so what does it matter

Extra classes for a couple of 21s is pointless. Unless of course we were to extend it to an extra class for any Sevenesque type of car that wanted to run (just to raise £, attract boat people into the club, etc.), but that's another thing all together.

[Silver 21]

So you could argue you let them take part in the 'normal' class.. but then they might have a big aero advantage at the real fast venues (mira, aintree???), and what would happen if it was damp for the main group, and then dry when the 21s ran 20 min later at the end of the 7s???

 

Neil

Very confused by this, why do you think they should neccessarily run at the end of the group 🤔

 

Nigel

Good Point although I think you will find that Caterham do not class CSR's as 7's either, they are CSR's and have a chassis that is very, very different from a 7/SV or 21.

 

Just to make a point I am not expecting 21's to be competitive due to their weight disadvantage over a 7 so am unsure why people would expect them to be in a class of their own as this would not be fun at all 😬 😬 😬 😬

 

Graham

 

21ing

[Tam]

I don't think its a certainty that they will be slower 😳 So on reflection, no problem with them competing as long as its not in class 3 😬

[neil.cavanagh]

Graham,

 

"Neil Very confused by this, why do you think they should neccessarily run at the end of the group"

 

because I said:

 

"So, no I dont' object to 21s in general. Just so long as they were to run in their own group at the events"

 

Note GROUP. As in because so visually different when we are guests (as we nearly always are) we shouldn't have 'mazda MX-5 or lotus Elise' (as many public would see them) in the middle of a gaggle of 'proper' SeVens.

 

[Alex Wong1697456877]

The club would effectively need to change it's constitution to embrace these cars.

 

But not to invite them to compete. There is a precedent. We once invited members of the lotus drivers club to a sprint and gave them their own class.

 

 

[Alex Wong1697456877]

 

 

Edited by - Alex Wong on 31 Aug 2007 15:53:52

[david nelson]

Last year the sprints reg were change so more club members could join in sprinting. We currently do not have any class for 21's so are excluding them form a club activity. This is wrong if the club is aimed at all its members. The 21 is very much part of the history of the 7 and Caterham. It is a progresion of the 7 just like the SV or CRS.

 

As to sprinting well what the problem? it no good puting them in their own class not many of them around. The would be class 2,3 or 4 i would think.

 

David

[FlymoFraser]

IMVHO

 

I would have no objection to 21s competing and see nothing wrong with them competing in classes on the same basis as the 7 . I think we could make a better case of excluding the CSR on the basis that its not a 7 than the 21 which as far as I can see is just a custom bodied 7.

 

I say give it a go for 2008 and see what happens, there will surely only be a few competing, if they beat all of us 7's then I think we should ask more questions about our driving skills than what class they fit in.

 

BB or S21 I'll just have to feed you more doughnuts to minimise your chances 😬

 

 

 

R287 Mobile Jaffa Cake- It's black at both ends with a smashing orangey bit in the middle here

[Richard Price]

I don't have a problem (not with 21's anyway 😬)

 

 

[Jason Plato]

let them in any class that suits the engine & tyres

 

but I would uphold the requirement for a roll bar to fia spec otherwise this would open a can of worms for all other entrants - being safety etc i think its reasonable as a requirement

 

I also support them being allowed into trackdays

 

[rummages around for the details of the 21GTO with a duratec supercharger - class 4 with 190bhp @ 4130 rpm of course ..... ]

 

here is C7 TOP

Taffia rear gunner

 

[Powderpuff]

A 21 1.8 Supersport (for instance) WILL BE / IS a slower car than the equivalent 7...FACT

 

So as BB says they wouldn't be competitive in the existing class structure...but if their owners wish to compete it would be great to see them invited (if not wholeheartedly embraced) by the club. Knowing most of the 21 owners, I'd be surprised if more than 2 max 3 of them wanted to enter anyway so a separate class would be quieter than class 6 this year ☹️

 

Re Neils comment about them not looking like an S3, SV or CSR...an S4 doesn't look much like a 7 either...but they're embraced by the club, even if there aren't many about 😳 Am I right in thinking I could do pretty much anything I want to the way my 7 looks in terms of for instance wings, splitters, NACA ducts and any other chav parts I can lay my hands on at Halfrauds and I'd still be eligible to compete, so my car could end up looking like a Saxo

 

As for aero, you'd need a huge advantage to make up for the slower acceleration in getting to the higher speed in the first place, added to the fact that slowing a 21 down takes longer than a 7 as well, so I can't see that being an issue. I can safely say that if you put Dave Hards 250bhp Duratec 21 up against an R500 or even SLR on any sprint venue it wouldn't have a chance...and that's not me suggesting DH3 can't drive

 

Now if we were doing endurance events...a 21 would thrash the pants off a 7

 

Let em in I say...but I'll still be sprinting the 7

[rgrigsby]

I'm all in favour of letting 21's compete, as had been mentioned it's unlikely they will be directly competative at most events (even MIRA I suspect) but it would be good to have them along.

 

I suspect very few 21's would actually compete so it does seem to make sense to let them fit in the appropriate class based on tyres/engine.

 

As for roll bars again it seems to make sense to insist they have something fitted.

 

 

Rob G

www.SpeedySeven.com

[Kevin Cherry]

Great idea but........

 

It states at the top of this page Lotus Seven Club

 

so how many Lotus Elises will be in the 21 class?

it's the same differnce isn't it?

 

Why not just get rid of all the Lotus references and rename the club the Caterham Drivers Club.......

or has that been taken already?

 

Kev

[Silver 21]

Kevin

 

As I'm a long standing member of this club I was kind of expecting a response similar to yours at some point.

 

It states at the top of this page Lotus Seven Club

 

As far as I'm aware not a single Lotus 7 competes in the championship they are all Caterham 7's

 

so how many Lotus Elises will be in the 21 class?

it's the same differnce isn't it?

---

 

Why is it ?,the 21 is built on a caterham 7 chassis, the elise isn't,

 

Why not just get rid of all the Lotus references and rename the club the Caterham Drivers Club.......

or has that been taken already?

---

 

Who said anything about changing the name of the club, the club caters for enthuiasts of Lotus & Caterham 7's on which the 21 is based, there are very few Lotus 7's in the club anyway as most Lotus drivers seem to prefer the more historic clubs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Graham

 

21ing

[Clawhammer]

Agree with Dave J

 

Let them have the opportunity to compete if they want to, as long as they comply with current regs

Robin

 

SUPERLIGHT 176. PINK LIPS AND BITS *redface*

[Adrian Williams]

21's to compete gets a from me.

 

They should go into existing classes depending on engine power and tyres, as others have pointed out they have a serious handicap dragging over 100kgs extra weight around so there can be no 'advantage' in entering one over a 7.

 

Roll bars should be fitted otherwise a can of worms will be opened.

 

Adrian