1.4 for 1.8 swap

[Roland]

I am on the lookout for a 1.8K to swapout my 1.4K,

I like my 1.4K SS but now liking the idea of 160bhp.

To replace my car (1995) with new 2002 model but with a 1.8 will cost me £22350 !!

That will be my car plus £12000. That is absurd.

All I need is:

1.8K VVC Engine (New or nearly so)

New EEC/module to suit.

 

Question is...what else? (Brakes?)

 

Peter Carmicheal.... I will NOT just swallow paying the high prices. (Caterham charge £3000 just for the extra 200cc!!)

 

 

[1400rs_0of30]

I am in the same situaton. Have a 1400k and love it, but know soon will want lotgs more power. I think ive got to the end of the line with mods without engine. Recently had widetrack, race springs, 13" wheels and ACB10's and it absolutely flew at goodwood recently.

 

I found dave andrews very helpful on the phone, kindly told me that my engine was better used as a doorstop :-)

 

So I think i'll be looking for a scrapyard 1800, sorting out a better box (a rocket 5 was advised by Dave), and then the ECU and Throttle Bodies should get you to 160 bhp ish.

 

sean

 

The original 1400 K Series Roadsport Prototype

 

My Caterham Website

[dino ferrana]

Sitting with a new Caterham Price list in front of me (I finally have one).

 

A new 140 X-Power (used to be 1.8SS) with 140bhp costs £19,200 fully built or 160 X-Power (new more powerful VVC engine from the MGF trophy) is £21200.

 

Sometimes Caterham do make things cheaper!

[Bob Corb]

The only bad thing about fitting a std VVC engine is that in order to get the larger aluminium plenum under the bonnet you have to lower the engine slightly. This is done by tipping it over to the right using a unique "VVC" RH engine mount. I only noticed this when I fitted the engine and found that most of the sump protrudes under the car. I now have 65mm clearance under the sump and it does scrape occasionally and the car doesn't look that low.

 

I'd advise you to fit a std 1.8 with an Emerald ECU and possibly SS cams. You may find that your current cams are the same as the 1.6/1.8 SS cams which would be conveinient. This would fit on your std mounts. I've seen used 1.8 engines for about £750 fully dressed with ECU, so I guess £600 would be about right. There are plenty about. A nice chap called Karl at Viking Rover Spares in South Brum was particularly helpful. This then leaves the doors open to fit port throttle bodies (direct to head), ported (VVC maybe) head and wild cams for super power whenever you feel like an upgrade.

 

Cheers

 

Bob

[Peter Carmichael]

Fair's fair. smile.gif

 

My point about the swallowing or otherwise was only really a call to bring market forces to bear. If the same item is available more cheaply elsewhere or by a bit of coordination we can arrange a bulk purchase with a manufacturer better deals are available. However Caterham do develop solutions for the car and then recoup the costs over a number of sales, reflected as apparently high prices. To dismiss Caterham's prices as excessive across the board is misleading. Where Caterham's development is reflected in the product, Caterham do not have economies of volume to absorb the development cost. The products are usually of high quality and it is difficult to develop a cost effective alternative. Costs are also set at the point the market will bear - anything else would be commercially inadvisable.

 

The Pace dry sump system is a case in point. It will be cheaper than Caterham's offering, but it will have inferior packaging as it won't use a bellhousing tank. Less money for less solution.

 

After all of that I suppose I better warn you to ready yourself for some swallowing. With a VVC engine, you will need a different wiring loom compared to your current 1.4. You will need a different flywheel. You will need to make sure the VVC engine comes with things like twin coil pack and other sundries. As Bob mentions, you will need the engine mounts to get it all to fit and you will need to transfer over the sump and carve a chunk off the side so that the starter will fit. It would be very brave of you to attempt to run this without an Apollo tank - if you attempt to source all the bits of an Apollo installation they come to the asking price. If you are getting a MEMS ECU, you need the matching immobiliser.

 

I cannot agree with you if you are complaining that £3000 for an extra 200cc is a fault with Caterham. I don't know which price list you are looking at and I don't know if you are looking at a differential price or an all up price for a new unit. The difference between a 1.6SS and 1.8SS has traditionally been ~£1000. which is less than your £3000 but still too high for 200cc in my opinion as the engines are almost identical internally, but includes a 1.6 flywheel to be fitted to the 1.8. The differences between a 1.6SS and a 1.8VVC or a 1.8 X-Power are more numerous and start to add up to £'000s. The price that Caterham charge on top of the base commercial price for an engine includes a not inexpensive sump and a few other bits and bobs. Not necessarily great value unless you appreciate one stop shopping.

 

In short, I sort of know where you are coming from, but if you want the best bargain, buy less.

[dino ferrana]

I think the price that Rover charge them may be quite different between 1.8 and 1.6 as well!

[jp7]

Hi all, I to looked at upgrading my 1.4 to a new slr, but couldn't bring myself to part with 28000 quid. So i've just changed, with a lot of help from Mick Smith!, from a 1.4 to a 1.8. The engine was sourced from a breakers in shrewsbury for about 800. I transfered the wiring loom( with a little modification ), the flywheel/clutch, engine mounts, exhaust and the injector loom. I bought an emerald ecu, and used a map from Roy Booth's car. I also put a caterham dry sump system and a quaife LSD on it as well.

Total cost so far has been 4000, of which the dry sump/lsd was 2450.

So far i've done just over 100miles in the car since finishing and to say it has been transformed is an understatement. You no longer have to wait for the revs to build up past 5000 as with the 1.4, it just goes! And this is with a standard engine ( the rolling road figures from Roys car were i think 135bhp, 130lbs ft).

IMO go for it, if your happy with everything else on your car, theres no point in changing.

Cheers

Andy

 

[murph7355]

But surely you wouldn't have had to part with 28k?

 

Even at a lowly 10k for your 1.4 you would "only" have had to find another 15k or so to be in used SLR territory (OK, so the car wouldn't be new, but it wouldn't be very old either).

 

Yes you're still 11k to the good. But you still have some way to go engine wise, there are big brakes to throw into the equation (unless you have them) and then there's all that carbon (which is a good 2k). If you don't have a 6spd box then the difference disappears to almost nothing, and if you can't do much/all of the work yourself, you'll be lucky to have change for a Mars bar.

 

I'm the last one to discourage anyone from upgrading their current car - I went from 1400KSS to SLR and a bit spec. myself (market was slightly different at the time though as the SLR wasn't a common site when I started, let alone R500s).

 

But the economics of doing it are harder to stack up properly when you compare like with like.

 

As for 12k being excessive, well there are people who happily lose more than this in 1 year on other types of tin. So 12k to go from a 7 year old car to a brand new one, that has more power and probably a significantly better spec isn't that bad really.

[Roland]

Thank you, all very good comments.

 

My prices that I quoted are from an actual Caterham quote to me on 24th April. Yes, it was an EXTRA £3000 for the 1.8 (on top of the money already charged for the 1.6) that makes a 1.6 cost about £3000 and a 1.8 go at £6000. See where I'm comming from.

 

By the way, the parts are just different..ie a con rod at, say 10% longer is an extra 20p in steel.

 

Dino... My numbers are actual, not a price list!! watch out, £800 for paint. +++

 

Peter, I agree, market forces etc. I will not be buying a new one.

Thank goodness I can enjoy what I have!! But I am now thinking of a used XK8 at £25k.

 

Thanks again and I appreciate all the help.

Roland

 

[murph7355]

It might be only 20p in raw material, but then there's the design and testing and if that cannot be set off against volume, you get a disproportionate increase.

 

And if the perceived value is that bit bigger, even more so.

 

Of course you would expect 1800 bits to be at least as numerous as 1600 so the first comment may not count. In steps the last comment instead.

[dino ferrana]

WHo did you speak to Roland? The new price list is just out and that is a definite price!

[tiptree]

I might be wrong (often am!) but I think it's a question of individual preference. I started to plan upgrades for my 1.4SS but came to the conculsion that whatever I do to it, if I want to sell at some point it will be a messed-about 1.4SS. A recent SLR will cost me an extra £12-14k and I can quite see how that makes a lot of sense for some of us.

 

On the other hand, there seem to be loads of owners (Jim in Tiptree is one) who have the patience and expertise to spend months on their car and make exactly what they want of it. That's great for them.

 

As for Caterham making a fortune from us, I just don't see it. I paid them over the odds for my used seven but I bought confidence along with the vehicle. And so they now want to make more money from an extra 200cc. Well doesn't every manufacturer, for the flimsiest of reasons?

 

For my own part, I hope that Caterham continue to make money, don't get legislated out of existence and that Pink Floyd and/or Genesis tour again soon.

 

 

 

Tomorrow's a good day for it!

[Mark P]

I recently upgraded from 1.4k series to 1.8 SL. Sold my car back to Woodcote cars, and bought privately, meant I had £6500 to find. But for £6500 I had Carbon (£2k ish), 6 speek gearbox (£2.5K), LSD (£600) and a lot more power (£ ???)!!!

 

I also took the view (following advice from fellow backchatters) that the 1.8SL would hold its value more than a upgraded 1.4k. Not than the car was bought as an investment.

[Mick Day]

A se7en is for life & lets face it most of us have invested more than money (grazed knuckles, new swear words, must take it out to test the new thingy etc (think on that one!)). Yes if you buy the car with one eye on its resale then don't change anything. But think on a minute: who are you going to sell it to? If you sell it back to the factory you can forget it if the wheelnuts are non-standard. But if you sell it to a fellow enthuseast they'll appreciate the never-ending-list of go-faster-goodies. Even if you buy a 2nd hand SLR I'm sure you'll, one day, want to get the engine out & let upgradeitis take its course. So what is the moral here: buy your car & develop it so it becomes what you want it to be. Me, well my 1.4 was junked a while ago & after a longish gestation period a 1.6 emerged which is still under development (thanks John!). Next stage will be an uprated bottom end & ???????????????

 

Mick

[jp7]

I suppose it all comes down to a question of money( how much you have!) and whether you think its worth it. i personally cant see a caterham of any description being ' worth ' around 30000 quid. I've just finished helping to build my brothers classic, he paid around 13000, good value, and lots of fun at the price, but the problems we encountered, and the quaility/fit of some of the components would have to get an awful lot better to justify charging a lot more. I thought to myself as we put together that if this was my slr that i'd just spent 28000 on, i would be mightily unimpressed. (I'm probably going to get blasted for that). We are all enthusaists and thats why we do it.

Maybe we would all benefit from spending our hard earned dosh on lots more trackdays/lessons to get the best from what we've got.

Now just going to put my hard hat on!!!!!

Cheers

Andy