Best first Caterham to buy with limited budget

[Flatlander]

Hi All,

 

Putting my head in the firing line hear, I think everyone's missing the point!

 

ANY seven, regardless of derivative when well driven will obliterate 99% of other vehicles on the road. As such my lowly live axled 2 ltr Zetec has been described by one passenger as "the closest thing to jumbo jet thrust" and by a superbike riding passenger as "the fastest point A to point B weapon in the world".

 

I am certain that a CSR260 is going to be better than my vehicle, but in my opinion we are comparing champagnes here.

 

Pull together, be evangelical and promote the concept of the seven in general.

 

Because you know what, everyone's a jewel!

[Casbar]

Mark, Nope Revin Kevin doesn't have a beard, but he is a top bloke with a solid engineering background and a rallying pedigree.

 

He has also helped out many of the West Hants chapter with engined re-builds etc on both K, Vx and Xflow's. There isn't much if anything about 7's he doesn't know about.

[Irrelevant]

Ed W: Engine upgrade wise, you can go to/from any engine combination. People do tend to move from crossflows rather than to them though . It's a complex area as some engines have exhausts on the RHS, some are a tight fit, some need this, some that, sometimes you can reuse things, other times you can't.....I'm sure you get the idea.

A popular upgrade from XF/VX is a Zetec. Arguably less popular and certainly more expensive is a Duratec. And probably less popular, a K.

Issues arise with engine mount location, holes in bodywork, fuel tanks/pumps, gearboxes, bellhousings. Also, if you have a live axle, the Ital won't take much torque and you MAY find you need either an English axle conversion or, although uncommon, a DD conversion. I THINK that all 1.6VXs have live axles(maybe wrong on that) which means the seemingly logical 1.8/2.0 Cav/Astra engine upgrade path will mean injection issues, and possibly axle problems - that's why it's uncommon.

As far as K upgrades go . .. these normally transplant higher spec K motors. This makes the upgrades far more simple as ancillaries and other components/body parts don't have to change. There are also a number of K tuners who offer Caterham based packages. Plenty of people have moved from Ks to Duratecs though, in the past, a big 2.0 VX was a popular move, and a few have gone from Ks to Zetecs.

These are the common upgrades for XF/VX/K . . . there are others such as Honda CTR engines, Mazda engines & various bike engines but these are all far more complex than the standard upgrade paths that have been beaten before, and as such, relatively simple to get informed help with.

You CAN fairly simply fit a BDx engine /Lotus Twincam in place of a XF but you get all the drawbacks (fuel, weight, etc.) for a marginal increase in power. BD/Twincam engines are also very expensive for what they are as they're popular for historic racing.

 

PS What are the pros & cons of clams vs cycle wings?!!

Clams:

Pros . . . . errrr, hmmmmmm . . .. . . . . . oh yes, they splash up less water and spray less gravel down the side of the car. They allow less unsprung weight and make fitting different sized wheels less of an problem than with cycle wings.

Cons . . . . they are used to advertise a certain type of sexual orientation which can lead to embarrassing situations if you park in the wrong place. Ok, that's not true, I just made it up . The main cons are that they create lift at speed, obscure your view of the front wheels(would do my head in but others manage), and (I think) the steering rack movement is restricted. I'd also say clams detract a tad from the car's value and you have to bear in mind, removing them leaves marks/dints down the side of the car which are not simple to disguise.

Cycle wings:

Pros . . . . Less lift at speed. Arguably more aesthetically pleasing. Cheap/simple to replace. More steering angle than with clams. Certainly don't detract from the car's value as they are the norm these days.

Cons . . . . Can cover you in water when you go through a puddle. They also pepper the side of the car and the rear wing with gravel. Wheels/tyres need to fit the wing. More unsprung weight as the damper unit has a wingstay and a wing to control. With hard track use, wingstays can break (from kerbstone vibration) and wings can crack or fall off(depending on how they're mounted). Wingstays also tend to rust from the inside, as for some stupid reason, thay are not sealed.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark Piper]

What's his real name then Casbar? he seems to have a bee in his bonnet about some of the advice on here, all of which seems to be on the money as far as I can see...warts and all on engines and axle configurations for all types of car.

 

As Flatlander says...you'll not be disappointed regardless of whichever 7 you buy

[Crudders]

. . . and (I think) the steering rack movement is restricted

 

Steering is unaffected these days as it happens Adam. In th'old days before Caterham had their own ali bodied racks made, the flared wing cars actually had better lock as the naked wheels were able to get closer to the side skin than cycle wing clad wheels could, IYSWIM.

 

As others have said, of course there's no such thing as a bad or inferior Caterham - whatever you buy will put a smile on your face. I'd reiterate the point made about getting along to an area meeting or several as well - you can talk to owners of different types and probably go for a few rides too.

 

Crudders

[Irrelevant]

I think everyone's missing the point!

ANY seven, regardless of derivative when well driven will obliterate 99% of other vehicles on the road

---

 

Flatlander: With respect, I think it is you, Revin Kevin(but not over 6200rpm I hope ), murf99, and many of the others who are missing the point. Ed W asked specific questions. What is the point of answering them by saying all Caterhams are lovely. To their owners they may be, but Ed W isn't an owner yet . .. he's trying to decide what is the most APPROPRIATE car to spend his £12K on and he's asked questions with SPECIFIC requirements. I'm just actually trying to answer them.

 

Crudders: Thanks for correcting me

 

 

[Colin Mill]

Cycle wings - forget the technical stuff, we all know that the real reason for having them is to watch the wheels moving about.

[Little Bob]

Agree with Colin - the fact that you can see the wheels move with the suspension compressions all adds to the uniqueness of driving a 7, it allows you to pinpoint exactly where the front wheels go.

 

As already mentioned they look better too - IMHO of course.

 

C7 GTE at Goodwood

[Ed W]

Colin et al

 

You are right! It is all about watching the wheels go up and down and turning, what modern car lets you do that? - Don't go there I can't afford them! Lets forget about clams vs cycle wings and concentrate on which engines are the best.

 

Does anyone have any statistics on K series and head gaskets going? or is that something that is more likely on the track?

 

Ed

[jono]

Ed,

 

If the liner heights are set correctly, not less than 4 thou, and steel dowels used then ISTR the risk of HGF is no worse than with any other engine. Oily, the K series doyen, will confirm this.

 

Also, I have a '96 1.8ss seven with 6 gears and a newly built DVA engine and all the goodies which might be for sale at quite a bit less than your budget if you are interested

 

 

[Graham Sewell]

Just a quick point about why Caterham moved away from the Xflow to K-series to Duratec; and from Live-axle to De-dion. It was purely because supply of the old parts dried up.

 

The De-dion is not much more advanced than a live axle other than the weight of the diff is carried by the chassis rather than the axle. Caterham did this because they knew that it would be cheap to design compared with starting from scratch with a double wishbone setup.

 

The only true quantum-leap advance that Caterham has made in design was with the CSR-260 which has all the bits that people have asked for 40 years (inboard front suspension, independant rear suspension, massively stiffer chassis, etc).

 

This is not to knock Caterham, but to put the differences in models (with the exception of power-to-weight) into context. As someone before mentioned, a good car of any vintage will be a good car and with a skilled driver will blow almost any other car away on a country road.

 

Cheers,

 

Graham

---

Low tech luddite - xflow and proud!

[Casbar]

Mark, not really upto me to tell people his real name, but I'm sure he wouldn't be bothered if everyone knew. I'm sure Revin will tell if he wants to. Knowing his real name doesn't seem to bring anything to the discussion though

[Dannyboy]

To answer, in my experience the HG query......I've not yet had one go......

 

I've had suspected HG failure on the original 1.4 engine....but changed it to a 1.4S/S before investigating...that was at around 100k miles on the original engine.

 

The Supersport did very well, covering about 80k and numerous trackdays without issue..until a spark plug came loose and damaged the head....at which time the very nice DVA who I phoned about a replacement head gasket set and other stuff..advised he had a 1.8! So....we installed that...and for 2 seasons of sprints, trackdays and road use it was fine..It destroyed itself following an 'incident' with a raised manhole however!

 

The current DVA 1.8k is again, touch wood, running fine! The car has done numerous sprints, trackdays and road use, and is driven to every trackday and sprint, and hasn't missed a beat, uses no coolant and very little oil! So.....in my experience...the HG has been fine! DVA will obviously advise further and with more knowlege on the inherent problems with the K!

 

Dannyboy

 

[Setok]

Ed, just considering your own needs and what kind of car you'll feel happy with, and forget all the fighting and stuff. There are loads of options and when looking through them you'll probably know which one is 'your car'.

 

Personally I have an Xflow with clams and I'm very happy with it. I do drive it quite a bit (not only as a 'toy') and the fuel consumption is really poor and something that would be nice to do something about at some time, but otherwise it's been great. Your needs will probably be different. Besides, I needed an older car for import into Finland ...

 

To flame things up a bit, almost all my friends here prefer the look of clams, so it's a matter of personal taste (and I do understand why it would be nice to see the wheels bobbing around). Additionally, based on everything I've heard, if an XFlow has had a proper rebuild then they'll pretty much go on forever, and are actually quite reliable.

 

You might want to check my "new owner pages" here

 

---

Kristoffer Lawson

[paulhodgson]

a

[Irrelevant]

and the fuel consumption is really poor

Setok: This might give you some ideas as to how to improve your Xf's fuel consumption. Bear in mind that if your fuel consumption is even worse than normal, you could be getting bore wash which can rapidly speed up bore/ring wear rates.

 

 

[paulhodgson]

I bought my first 7 a few months ago, for just around £10k, it is a 1993 VX 2.0 Injection HPC and is huge fun to drive, if a little noisy and hot. I looked at 2 or 3 other variations, but liked the style and looks of the HPC and have not been disappointed, apart from the appalling weather keeping me out of it most of the time at present. I have no garage, but find the CoverMaster cover absolutely fine & dry, my only regret is waiting so long before finally making the decision to buy one. Enjoy

[Setok]

Adam, as I'm not a car techie I don't (yet) know what throttle bodies are and I'm not sure how involved or expensive that upgrade would be. I did get some tips on the sevens list.

 

Also, my Crossflow fuel consumption is around 12-15l/100km, which I think is around 18-22 mpg. A case of TADTS, I believe, for Xflows ...

 

---

Kristoffer Lawson

 

Edited by - Setok on 26 Jul 2007 15:45:11

[P G Warren]

Someone made the point about not being scared of getting a bigger engine for your first 7.

 

I bought my VX1600 this year and am really enjoying it 😬. However....I now wish I'd gone for a 2.0 HPC as I am already craving more power 😬 😬

 

Otherwise, I'd fully endorse the VX1600 - seems rock solid, no problems at all. It is LA but seems fine to a novice like me.

 

So, go for a bit more power from the off I'd say 😬

 

1999 VX1600

[Sheds Moderator]

I had 130 bhp in my 1.4 kss and I have to say I never wanted more, it used to scare the crap out of me every time I booted it and never ceased to amaze me over 4-5 years of ownership. Re head gaskets, if the car has plastic dowels, the HG will fail. With steel dowels and a decent modern gasket, (kit £75) provided it has properly set up liner heights and a skimmed head it will last as long as anything else.Angus and Tessa's car lasted 100k miles on the original HG.

[neilg]

Blimey, where's the love boys!!

To the point, a year a go I was in same position as you. Had a x flow westie for years with live axle so know all about pros and cons of that combo.

However I wanted a more modern experience and engine so opted for the k series as being nice and light and tunable. Wanted handling finesse above all else really.

SO, bought an ex race 1.6 k roadsport with full cage and a few track goodies but otherwise in poverty spec ie 2 pots, 5 speed , open diff , narrow track . Cost 12k from Caterham Mids with 5000 miles on clock. 2002 reg Gulf colurs.

A year on after about 5-6 track days under my belt I'm still really pleased with it. It's been reliable, no HG woes, uses bugger all oil and is great fun. I had it supersported to 135 bhp . Handling is great.

In conclusion get as much goodies as you can for as little money as you can. I would love LSD ( especially!!) but don't be put off by simple specs .

AND whatever you do don't start a thread on the BEST TYRE..CR500 v Toyo V Yoko 😬

😬 😬 or JiLL Judd v Full Hood or 5 speed v 6 speed for Christ sake .

Cheers Neil .

[JACK FLASH]

Ed,

 

Also being a novice in the Club and the Forum, but not a novice in Sevens and (race)cars, I would like to point out one very important thing.

 

You people in the UK do not know how lucky you are to have this bewildering choice in Sevens in every possible specification.

 

For madman like me on the Continent, it has always been a question :

 

1. Are there LHD Sevens on the market ?

2. Is the owner or the seller going to ask a high, a ridiculous high or an astronomically high price ?

3. Can I get the car on the road in the country where I live and how long is the battle with all the involved authorities going to last ?

4. What am I going to discover when I finally start driving the car ?

 

I think you have more or less the same expectations of a Seven as me. Own, drive and maintain a nice car with a sensible combination of power and driveability and all this for a reasonable budget.

 

For a buyer in the UK I would suggest going for a nice ùedium power X Flow with a LA or DD; there isn't a lot of difference for normal road use. Alternatives are Zetec power on carbs or a Vauxhall on carbs.

 

Forget or even better avoid K-Series, fuel injection and katalytic convertors ! All of these things make life complicated and very costly.

 

My current car is a factory built Super Seven in a very, very classical specification : Twin Cam (1600 tall block), 2000E 4 speed gearbox, Ford LA axle, clamshells and 185/70 balloon tyres on 13" KN alloys. Apart from a few starting problems (see another topic) it is the best and most enjoyable car I' ve ever driven.

 

Last but lot least, do not forget the impact of the sound of a X Flow or Twin Cam on twin Webers on the normal road users.

 

A thing of beauty is a joy forever ... someone said.

[Andy Best]

Ed,

 

I had a smaller budget than you to start, I looked at many cars over a too long period and in the end spent more than I originally intended . I also had a similar outlook to you, I wanted a car for a good period of time that I could improve over the years with mixed use.

 

I spent a lot of time at local meets asking questions trying out different cars during which time I built my own wish list. I wanted a good clean car that had as many of the expensive parts I wanted, I didn't get all I wanted but I had fun with upgraditus for the last 6 years and still have a few more jobs on the list 😬.

 

One thing I have learnt is that the seven is easy to work on and to change spec in the future if you want to, but it is best to pick a sensible starting point.

 

If I was in your position now I would be looking for higher spec as possible in a tidy condition and of all the second handers out there at the moment the 1.6/SL would be high on my list. Try and give one a try and see what you think.

 

OK it's a K but if you treat it properly you should be OK with the head gasket, if it does fail they can be fixed relatively easily these days by a visit to someone like DVA Power. The only problem is you will succumb to the shiny bits on the shelf and come out with a few more BHP under the bonnet

 

Thats my 2d hope it helps

[Englishmaninwales]

Jack Flash:

Forget or even better avoid K-Series, fuel injection and katalytic convertors ! All of these things make life complicated and very costly.

What utter b@lls. *smile*When your Twincam needs a rebuild ☹️, do let us know how much it costs you and I'll let you know what my K cost to rebuild .

 

And I love Twincams.

 

Malcolm

[murf99]

ED

 

And all you nutters

 

If you have 12k, to spare, simple answer is just buy the best you can and f***ing

get on with it

 

Is the longest ever 1st post ?

 

PS mines got 3 more bhp than yours ( oh big deal )

 

Murf